Steve Cuden: On today’s StoryBeat:

Jeff Leisawitz: So when we are seen, expressed, and healed through our stories, we give that gift to the world. We move from giving the gift to the world to being the gift because we show others that they can be seen, expressed, and healed. And that changes us. from a bunch of writers with tremendous sentences to an undercover army of rock star ninjas, who you are here to help connect and really, in ways, heal the world.

Announcer: This is Story Beat with Steve Cuden, a podcast for the creative mind. Story Beat explores how masters of creativity develop and produce brilliant works that people everywhere love and admire. So join us as we discover how talented creators find success in the worlds of imagination and Entertainment. Here now is your host, Steve Cuden.

Steve Cuden: Thanks for joining us on StoryBeat We’re coming to you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My guest today, Jeff Leisawitz burns with a mission to inspire and teach storytellers and creatives of every flavor, to open minds and connect hearts with their words and stories. Jeff is a grand Lia, Cannes lion gold, and Clio gold. Award winning creative consultant, critically acclaimed authorization, award winning music producer, internationally distributed screenwriter, and former college instructor. As a coach, keynote speaker, and workshop facilitator. Based in Seattle, Jeff helps clients and students overcome internal blocks, tap into their creative potential, get published, land major sales, and win awards. He’s been, featured in top podcasts, magazines, and newspapers, including Script magazine, Film, courage, the Guardian, Music Connection, Tiny Buddha, HuffPost, the unmistakable creative, and more, including once before on story. Jeff’s latest book is the magical impact of storytelling, which I’ve read and can tell you is an easy to read, highly motivating compendium of encouraging advice for anyone hoping to become their best creative self. If you’re looking for inspiration in your storytelling life, I urge you to check out the magical impact of storytelling. So, for all those reasons and many more, it’s a truly great privilege for me to welcome for the second time to StoryBeat the superb writer, speaker, and transformational coach, Jeff Leisawitz. Jeff, welcome back to the show.

Jeff Leisawitz: Hey, hey, hey. Happy to be here.

Steve Cuden: Well, it’s great to have you back on the show. So since we chatted, which, believe it or not, was about seven years ago.

Jeff Leisawitz: Oh, my God.

Steve Cuden: Has your notion of storytelling changed in any way?

Jeff Leisawitz: Good m question. Yeah, it. It’s always kind of evolving in different ways, but a really big one, a really, big new idea that I kind of came around with recently is about what a positive story is, right? So you typically think that a positive story you know, it has a happy ending. That’s an inspirational tale, things like that.

Steve Cuden: Right.

Jeff Leisawitz: But it turns out that we can get a positive message out of what might appear to be a negative story

Steve Cuden: Oh, that’s interesting. How so?

Jeff Leisawitz: So if you think, like, think of a, you know that photograph from the Vietnam war with the monk lighting himself on fire?

Steve Cuden: Mm

Jeff Leisawitz: Right? You look at that, and that is, you know, by all accounts, like, wow, that’s negative. That’s harsh.

Steve Cuden: It’s brutal.

Jeff Leisawitz: It’s brutal. Yeah, it’s terrible. Right? but you look at this, and you feel that negativity, that fear, that, you know, outrage, you know, whatever anger, whatever these emotions might be, and that’s very real. But the step after that is then what happens? What do you do with that next? Hey, maybe you stop a war. Maybe you vote for peace, those kinds of things. So although the story itself isn’t a happy ending or a photograph, like, that isn’t a happy, inspirational photograph. The next piece in the, viewer or reader or audience’s mind is, wow, what is a different path to go on?

Steve Cuden: Right, right. And so it’s all about the story is inspiring a thought that may counter what the image is or what the thing is.

Jeff Leisawitz: Exactly. Right. If we. If we tell the whole story and, you know, here, do this and that and this and that, and it’s a positive, happy ending. Okay, that’s great. And that’s powerful. But the other way works too. Right? You can build a story that’s based on fear and based on anger and based on all these kinds of things. And, you know, if told well, the intention can still be to get to a more positive place.

Steve Cuden: Well, of course, we all tell each other stories every day, you know. How was your day? Well, I’ll tell you the story of what happened during my day. We look at stories on the news, tonight’s top story and so on. So it’s all about storytelling. And what I guess you’re saying is that even a negative story or a negative image can trigger a positive thought.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yes, exactly. It might take a little bit more on the part of the audience or the reader, right?

Jeff Leisawitz: Because you have to make that next step. What don’t I want instead of what do I want?

Steve Cuden: Right. All right, so let’s talk about the magical impact of storytelling. What, inspired you to write it?

Jeff Leisawitz: Oh, well, you know, stories are magical, so I figured I’d write a book about it, you know, I’ve always been, you know, even as a little kid, just taken into different worlds as a reader and, you know, with movies, I used to love mystery, mystery theater on the radio. Back when I was a little kid, I’d turn that thing on. I was supposed to be going to sleep, and there were two commercials at 20 minutes, and at 40 minutes, I could make it past the first one. Okay, get into the second one, and then freaking nine times out of ten, I’d fall asleep for the. The ending of the.

Steve Cuden: How old were you at that time?

Jeff Leisawitz: Oh, you know, ten years old, you know, trying to go to school, and mom comes in, turn that radio off. or I’m reading under the covers, you know, typical.

Steve Cuden: I wonder how many people today would say they’re listening to the radio to go to sleep. Most people are listening probably to their computer or their phone or something like that.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah, exactly. It’s, you know, times have changed, that’s for sure.

Steve Cuden: So you felt like this was a good time to bring the impact of storytelling back out again?

Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah. Well, you know, I’ve been thinking about it. I’ve been writing. I’ve been doing all kinds of different work, and, you know, like you said in Film and songwriting, and photography as well, all these kinds of things. And you kind of just. If you think about it, you start accumulating ideas around this stuff. And how do you put that all together? How can that be useful for someone else, which is, you know, part of the magical impact of storytelling?

Steve Cuden: So. Okay. Tell the listeners who don’t know, what specifically is the book all about? Obviously, it’s about storytelling, but let’s hear some specifics about it.

Jeff Leisawitz: Sure. So the big idea in this book is that, at its best, storytelling is a way for us to be seen, expressed, healed, and connected. Seen, expressed, healed, and connected. So let me break that down. So, in this world, we are not particularly well seen. While you’re driving down the free way, hopefully, the other drivers see you and avoid crashing into you. Right. That’s kind of.

Steve Cuden: That’s a good idea.

Jeff Leisawitz: Right. the next level in is sort of your acquaintances, your coworkers, the people at the coffee shop, stuff like that. Hopefully, they see us and they kind of get us in different ways. Right. But in my experience, they don’t really know that much. They don’t see that much, and they don’t particularly care that much. Okay, fine. I. And then you’ve got your inner, your BFF’s, your family, your friends, that kind of stuff, kids, whatever. And again, hopefully, they do really see us. They really get us. But again, in my experience, they typically see parts of us. So that’s the being seen part. What does it mean to be expressed? Well, being expressed in my definition simply means moving from the potential to the actual. Think of a dancer on Saturday night. She’s got all the moves, but she’s sitting in the corner of the dance club, sipping on her cocktail. That disco ball spinning around. The beat is thumping in that moment. She’s not expressed as a dancer. When she gets out there and starts shaking it, then, yes, she is expressed. Same thing’s true with us as writers. You can have a pile of books on your desk that you’ve written. You can have a hundred poems, right? But in the only moment where you’re actually expressed as a writer is when you are writing. So when we are seen and expressed in our stories, and we create with a sense of vulnerability and courage and depth and authenticity, there is a sense of healing that occurs. I’ve experienced it myself. I’ve interviewed probably hundreds of artists and writers and stuff, and they’ve all said the same thing in one way or another. Now, often this can be like a catharsis, letting go of something dark and heavy, right? And that’s great. And tons and tons of art and music and, books and movies and all that have come from that place. But it doesn’t have to be from that place. It can be from a lighter place. Like, what is the healing in a love song? No more lonely nights. So when we are seen, expressed and healed through our stories, we give that gift to the world. But here’s where it gets really cool. We move from giving the gift to the world to being the gift.

Jeff Leisawitz: Because we show others that they can be seen, expressed and healed. And that changes us from a bunch of writers with tremendous sentences to an undercover army of rock star ninjas who are here to help connect and really, in ways, heal the world.

Steve Cuden: So are you saying storytelling is a. Yeah, it’s a give and take. It’s a two way Street.

Jeff Leisawitz: It’s absolutely a two way Street. you know, you’re the. As the writer, you’re the producer. You create the thing to make the connection. Somebody’s got to read it, somebody’s got to experience it. And when you do it with craft and, style and, you know, all kinds of ingredients that make it great, that’s where the magic is.

Steve Cuden: That’s what makes it special for people.

Steve Cuden: So is there a requirement for the average person who’s not a writer per se, to learn how to be a better storyteller in their day to day life?

Jeff Leisawitz: sure. Is there a requirement? The first thing I would say is, know why you are telling the StoryBeat: In the first place. Okay, now, this sounds easy. Like, oh, of course I know why. But in my experience as a coach and teacher and all that, we don’t really know why until we really ask ourselves deeper and deeper questions about what is driving us. So let me tell you a story will flash back to the moment of my birth.

Steve Cuden: You were there.

Jeff Leisawitz: Very good. I was definitely there. So, hey, welcome to earth. That’s great. Doctor looks at this little baby and says, oh, hey, mom, guess what? Your kid has a birth defect. My eye was screwed up. It still kind of screwed up. Eyelid, you know, screwed up. So about a year later, it’s time to get surgery on this little kid.

Steve Cuden: When you’re one year old, one years old, okay.

Jeff Leisawitz: So the parents go to see two different eye surgeons. They go to the first one, and they’re sitting in his office. This guy’s well regarded in the community, knows what he’s talking about. Ask him a bunch of questions. He answers them all well. And towards the end, my dad’s like, well, why did you become an eye surgeon? And he says, well, you know, I was always good at science, and, you know, my dad was an eye doctor, and I figured I could make a lot of money doing it, so I became an eye doctor. Okay, great. So then they went to the second person, and this woman, also well regarded in the community, had all the degrees, knew what she was doing. And again, towards the end of their time together, the parents asked her, so why did you become an eye doctor? And she said, well, when I was a little girl, seven or eight years old, I was home alone with my little sister. My mom was out getting groceries, or something. My little sister managed to get into the bleach, and she spilled bleach into her eye. And she’s screaming and crying and freaking out, and I’m eight years old. I don’t know what to do. By the time the mom got home, the little sister had gone blind in one eye. So this girl, as she grew up, decided, you know what?

Steve Cuden: I’m.

Jeff Leisawitz: I am m going to become an eye doctor to help other people get through these kinds of traumas. So, you know, all things being equal, which of these two doctors are you going to go with? the one has a very clear why. Let’s flashback again this time, early seventies, New York City, Manhattan. A black woman is walking across the city to go to a recording studio. This woman had been a victim of racism and sexism her whole life. She had given birth to her first child at age 1250. Years later, Rolling Stone magazine declares the song that she was about to sing that day to be one of the 50 best songs ever recorded. So when the queen of soul steps up there to that microphone and sings out r e s p e c t, she knew why she was singing.

Steve Cuden: That song, and it came through that vocalization, right.

Jeff Leisawitz: I mean, she had the voice, absolutely, but she also had the heart and the energy behind that.

Steve Cuden: She had the soul. Not to be, you know, too predictable, I should say, but she was. She sang from her soul.

Jeff Leisawitz: She sang from her soul, and she knew her why the why is such a big deal. They carved it in freaking stone at the temple of Delphi. Know thyself.

Steve Cuden: So perhaps there are some listeners that don’t know who we’re talking about. It’s Aretha Franklin that we’re talking about.

Jeff Leisawitz: Aretha Franklin. Yes. R e s b c t. Respect. Yeah. Go listen to it. I mean, the second it hit the radio, it was a worldwide hit. We’re listening to it 50 years later, and we’ll listen to it in another 50 years easily.

Steve Cuden: I mean, it’ll go on and on for sure. As long as there are humans around, they’ll be listening to that song. What writers do you admire that you think they’re great storytellers? And why do you admire them?

Jeff Leisawitz: I mean, this one’s kind of mainstream, but I’m gonna say Steven King.

Steve Cuden: Steven King. One of my very favorites.

Jeff Leisawitz: Steven King. Not only do I love his stories, you know, his novels and all that, but all the times where he speaks about it, people have asked him, why do you do this? How do you do it so well? Blah, blah, blah, blah. He basically says, all of this comes, essentially from me processing my fear. I was scared as a kid. I was scared of a lot of things. So I wrote stories to help me kind of control this fear or to, you know, push it in certain ways. And obviously, the guy’s got the craft and, you know, he hit it huge, you know, basically as big as it’s going to get. So I love that he’s got the why and he’s got the skill and, you know, I’m sure he’s had the luck, too, and the marketing and all the rest of it. but at the end of the day, he’s writing from a place of truth for himself.

Steve Cuden: He, once said one of my favorite quotes of his, which is when people ask him, you have this ability as a writer and you’re a very fine writer. You could write literature. You could write anything you want. Why have you chosen to spend your career writing this horrific horror work? And his response to them is, what makes you think I have a choice?

Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah, exactly.

Steve Cuden: Isn’t that right?

Jeff Leisawitz: Exactly. So that is true, I think, for all creatives, right, all writers.

Steve Cuden: You do what you do because it’s what you do.

Jeff Leisawitz: It’s because you kind of have to. Yeah.

Steve Cuden: Have to.

Jeff Leisawitz: So this reminds me of a story with my mom. She. My mom was like, straight down the middle, right? She went to. And she’s always looked at me like, what? Who is this kid? Why do you do, you know, why do you do what you do? Right. However, she went to college and went m roommates with a woman many, many years ago who was and has become a full time artist for decades, you know, for 50 years or something. So they’re still in touch. So she talks to her on the phone. So, a couple years ago, she talked to the artist on the phone. How’s it going? You know? And the artist says, well, last year was great. I had all these gallery shows, sold a bunch of stuff, blah, blah, blah. It was great. This year, kind of terrible. I can’t sell anything. There’s no opportunity. I don’t know what’s going on. Blah, blah, blah. So my mom says, well, why in the world would you subject yourself? Would you create a life like this for yourself? And she says, the artist says, it hurts me if I don’t create art. So then, you know, my mom, a couple weeks later, I’m talking to her, and she’s like, yeah, I talked to the artist roommate. Is this what it’s like for you? I’m like, yeah, I would. Yeah, it is.

Steve Cuden: You would do this if no one paid any attention to you, if no.

Jeff Leisawitz: One gave you it, and no one pays attention. Like, I made a book of 100 haikus. You know, nobody freaking reads that. You know, whatever. I just do it because I love it.

Steve Cuden: You do it because you have to do it. You’re compelled to do it, and it is your expression. It’s your soul coming out.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Cuden: And so who, then, do you think, benefits, ultimately, from storytelling? Is it the storyteller, mainly? Is it the receiver? Or is it a benefit to both in some way?

Jeff Leisawitz: What’s absolutely a benefit to both, if there is a both. But let’s just start with the writer. As I just, you know, said, about the book, there is a real healing when you write with depth and truth and authenticity. And I you know, when I say healing, I’m like, what are the different parts of ourselves that become more conscious? I wrote a screenplay a couple years ago, and it’s sort of this ensemble piece. So there’s a ten year old boy, a nerd kid, and then his bully, and then there’s a 20 year old sort of dorky counselor, and then there’s like, this punk rock teenage, girl, and this pretty girl is her friend. Like all this kind of stuff. I’m writing this thing, and at some point I’m like, oh, my God. Each of these characters is a part of me. Like a very real aspect of who I am, who I was, or who I’m gonna be. Including the teenage punk rock girl. I’m like, oh, my God. You know, her elements of her character are parts of me, which is exactly what you want to do as a writer. You want to bring pieces of you into fictionalized other characters and have them relate and have them work their stuff out.

Steve Cuden: Well, it’s good to know that you have in your mind’s eye that you are a punk rock girl.

Jeff Leisawitz: Well, I was a punk rock boy, you know, back then, you know, when I was punk rock and a, kid. But, yeah, I mean, what I’m saying is, you know, you break out the different pieces of you. Because we’re all psychologically built of many different parts.

Steve Cuden: Of course.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yes. And when, you know, as writers, one of the things we do is we tap into those parts and create stories, create drama fiction around them so that they can explore their own experiences. And when we do that, well, again, with craft and style and all this and that, not only is it helpful for us, but that is when it will tap into the reader or the audience’s mind and their own experience. So dig this. We are, you know, I and you are one of billions and billions and billions of people who have walked this earth. Your experience, every listener out there, their experience is completely unique. And at the same time, as humans, we all have universal human themes, which we share. So one of the secret ingredients of writing a great story is being able to personalize it, bring enough of yourself into the story right, that it feels real to you and to understand what that universal human theme is, because that is the piece that’s going to connect with the audience. They’ll see themselves in you or your. Your story your characters.

Steve Cuden: Well, there’s no question, as humans, we are all interconnected in some way and that we do share various things in our lives that are absolutely the same as one another. And then there are many, many, many differences. And that’s sort of what makes life most interesting. Would be awful if we were all the same, that’s for sure. So tell the listeners what some of the bigger challenges are. When one conceives a book like this, or any book or a hundred of haikus, what are the challenges that you go through in conceiving it and then writing it?

Jeff Leisawitz: Well, I mean, my book, I think. I, mean, I don’t know what other people are doing out there specifically, but for this book, I, like I said, thinking about this for many, many years. I’ve been working on this. I’ve been practicing this kind of stuff really constantly. So, for me, the biggest challenge was simply like, deciding if I’m going to do it and then doing it. Like, it sort of gets that simple. It reminds me of what my friend, Tony Robbins, the big Life coach guy, says. it’s like when you really decide something, it simply happens, right? Often we make decisions which are pretty half assed. Oh, I’m only going to have one little square of chocolate after dinner tonight. You know, I’m going to go to the gym all the time. You know, these are decisions that are typically not really decisions. When you decide, I am writing my book, I know why I’m doing it, I know how to do it, or I’m going to figure it out. That is the kind of decision that it takes to complete something as epic as a book or really any creative project.

Steve Cuden: So the biggest hurdle to get over, then, is just the decision to really buckle down and do it.

Jeff Leisawitz: Well, I’m speaking for myself. There are many, hurdles for other people out there, sure. But, yes, I would say the first big hurdle, and it’s not even a hurdle, it’s a decision.

Steve Cuden: Decision.

Jeff Leisawitz: Right. Like I said, you can, you can decide. Well, actually, let’s talk about a Steven King story There’s a great Steven King story short story many years ago. I think it’s called, like, smokers anonymous, smoking incorporated, something like that. It’s about a guy who wants to stop smoking, and he just can’t do it. His doctor says, you’re going to die if you don’t stop smoking. He can’t do it. He tries, tries, tries. He sees an advertisement in the newspaper, and it says, call us guaranteed 100%, you will stop smoking. He’s like, okay. He calls him up, he goes in, pays him the money, and they make him sign this big contract, like this ten pager. He’s like, okay. Goes home, and they’re like, stop smoking. He’s like, all right, well, he doesn’t stop smoking. You know, he goes a couple days and he smokes, and then some guy comes out of the shadows and beats the shit out of him. He’s like, oh, geez. Okay. So he stops again for a couple more weeks, and then, same thing, he smokes again. And something else happens. Some guy comes out of somewhere and cuts him, you know, like, really bad. Right? And the third time, they chop off his finger. And then the guy. And then the guy stops smoking. That’s the decision. Right. And sometimes, you know, I hate to say this, but this is true with humans. Sometimes it takes so much pain before we make a decision. You don’t have to do it that way, but that’s typically how it goes. If it hurts bad enough, they chop your freaking finger off. Right. You’re gonna stop smoking.

Steve Cuden: Well, that’s the motivation.

Jeff Leisawitz: Right. And that kind of goes back to the first thing we’re talking about with the fear. Right. Like, that’s not a happy story They chopped off the guy’s finger. Right. But the next step is he stopped smoking because the next time, they were gonna kill him.

Steve Cuden: Right. As a creative person, you have to find whatever that motivation is, hopefully, short of having body parts lopped off.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yes. And as a Life coach, I would not suggest this kind of thing.

Steve Cuden: No, nor would I. So please don’t lop anything off out there, please.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah, don’t. Don’t lop things off. That’s one of my mottos. And also, this is an external stimulus. Right. So it’s much better as a, you know, as coach, talk about centering your power. You want to center your power. We often give our power, and in the case of that story the character did give his power away until the end.

Steve Cuden: So explain what you mean by centering your power.

Jeff Leisawitz: Okay, so in this world, we typically. We really. We have influence over a lot of things, but we really only have power over a few things. Three things, really. How we act in the world, how we react to the world, and how we perceive the world. There’s a lot of other things we can influence but we cannot control. You can control those three things. Anytime you attempt to assert control over anything besides those three things, you are, in essence, giving your power away. Giving your energy away. So a decision is within your power that is taking action in the world. Right. I am going to write a novel this year. That’s a decision that’s under your control.

Steve Cuden: Correct.

Jeff Leisawitz: Other things may influence your life, but I’ll tell you what if some guy’s going to come and chop off your finger on December 31? If that thing’s not done, you’re going to do it, right? You’re going to write that book. You can do it.

Steve Cuden: If they do, blame Steven Kingdom.

Jeff Leisawitz: Exactly. Steven, thank you and sorry and whatever, you know. I don’t know. He’ll probably hear this podcast will be like, who are these guys?

Steve Cuden: If Steven King hears this podcast, I’m in hog heaven.

Jeff Leisawitz: Ah, yes, me too. Which, by the way, I wrote as a kid. I wrote a letter to him about another story and I think it was in the same book. What was that, a night shift? Might have been that book. It was a story about a guy who climbs up this barn and does these swan dives into the hay bales. It was like this most beautiful story until the end when his sister ends up committing suicide, jumping off a building. I was like, oh, my God, this is like, this is crazy. So I wrote him this letter, I’m probably twelve years old, about a story that was sort of similar to me. It was about rock climbing and an experience I had with that. And he freaking wrote back, mmm.

Steve Cuden: that’s amazing.

Jeff Leisawitz: He wrote back and what he’s. I still remember what he said. I mean, it was a big deal. He said, your story sounds scarier than mine. I was like, what?

Steve Cuden: It’s nice that you got a letter from Steven King, though. Did you frame it?

Jeff Leisawitz: I hope I did. You know, when I was younger, I used to do this all the time. I wrote to the record company for Billy Idol and U two, and I got, I got signed black and white promo shots from these guys. Yeah, I still have them.

Steve Cuden: Wow, that’s really cool.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah.

Steve Cuden: So I’m curious. As you were writing this book, and as you’ve written your other things, your other books, do you know as you’re writing that what you’re writing is working or do you need to wait till you’re finished and look back to know whether it’s a, it works or not?

Jeff Leisawitz: Well, that’s another great question, whether it’s writing a book or screenplay. you know, which I’ve done a bunch of songs, art piece, anything. To me, it typically reminds me of a good, profitable stock chart. Right? So what does a stock chart do? It goes up and down and hopefully it trends up if you bought it. Right. So that is my experience in pretty much everything I’ve ever done creatively. Right. And it kind of goes like this. Oh my God, I’m a genius. This is amazing. Oh, this totally sucks. I’m terrible. Oh, wait. You know, maybe this is pretty good. you know, I don’t know. You know, give it a rest, man. You know, bam, bam, bam. Up, down, up, down. Over time, that’s when you look at it, and then you’re like, oh, okay, this is moving forward. This is getting better. And then, of course, you can’t. You can’t really know until you give it some space, right? Don’t look at it for a while, then you come back, and you’re gonna have a completely, you know, potentially completely different opinion. And then that’s just your opinion. And while you definitely need to please yourself, that doesn’t mean that’s what the world is going to respond to. So I love this story Simon Garfunkel, right? Simon Garfunkel. They’re in the studio, and they record a whole bunch of songs, and they’re getting ready to pick the songs that go on the album. So they’re picking through, and they look at this one, and they’re both like, no. No way. This one doesn’t make the cuts. There’s, you know, not really that good. And, the producers, like, this one is going on the album like, nah. You know, he’s like, yes. They ended up putting it on the album. Oops. It became an american classic. Sound of silence.

Steve Cuden: Mm M. Yeah.

Jeff Leisawitz: They didn’t even want it on the right record.

Steve Cuden: Yeah. It’s frequently a story that you hear with all kinds of big, popular, memorable products of one kind or another, where along the way it was close to being abandoned or. Or was abandoned, and somebody pulled it out of a, Well, in fact, Steven King, the famous story is that he wrote Carrie, and he hated it and threw it in the trash, and his wife pulled it out, and it wound up being Carrie. That’s a famous story from him.

Jeff Leisawitz: He wound up giving his wife a big hug on that one, and I.

Steve Cuden: Think she’s been treated fairly well ever since.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yes, it worked out for everybody over there.

Steve Cuden: Yes, indeed. So, yes, that’s true. When we are the creator, it’s really common. I know for myself it’s true. And I know many creative people who say the same thing, that the work that we produce, that others may love and respect and revere and maybe put up on a pedestal and hold in high work, we just think of as it’s something we did, and we know where all the seams are and all the things we went through to get there and all the mistakes, and we know what the things are. We would change. If we only had a chance now to change it, etcetera, etcetera. And so that’s because we don’t hold much of what we create in as high regard as maybe other people do.

Jeff Leisawitz: That’s true. And really, at the end of the day, the whole thing’s subjective.

Steve Cuden: Well, it’s totally subjective.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah, yeah, it’s totally subjective. So, you know, it’s like, what’s the goal? Is it to completely please yourself? Is it to, you know, connect with as many people as possible? Is it to make as much money as possible? Is it to have the biggest impact? You know, in various ways? I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of different goals.

Steve Cuden: Did you work from an outline? Did you know what you were doing before you started?

Jeff Leisawitz: Or did you just go, I think I did work from an outline. you know, it’s like, okay, here’s what I want to say about writing stories and, you know, put out the main points and then developed each of them and then wrote it. Yeah.

Steve Cuden: Did you decide how to structure the book before you started as well? I mean, that’s the outline’s purpose. Did you know it was going to be in this particular order and you were going to come at it this way so there was a sequence leading to a conclusion?

Jeff Leisawitz: I probably started that way. And then as I wrote the different ideas and chapters and stuff like that, then, you know, moved them around a little bit, made them, you know, connect better, be more fluid, build, you know, build the ideas, etc. Etc. A little bit of both.

Steve Cuden: It’s programmed that way for you.

Jeff Leisawitz: Oh, yeah, yeah, it’s.

Steve Cuden: So, tell us about our inner critic and the impact that it has on our storytelling, how we tell stories.

Jeff Leisawitz: Well, I introduced, the inner critic to the world, which has been there, you know, way before I showed up in my other book. Not f ing around the no b’s guide for getting your creative dreams off the ground. And I call that little sucker the ick inner critic. And, we’ve all got it. And, okay, so we’ve all got it. The question is, is this inner critic going to be an enemy or an ally? The thing to remember is that this is one of the parts of us. Right? We were talking about the parts before. Right. So this is a part that is there to keep us safe. However, when the inner critic gets a voice that is too loud, it stops us from moving forward in ways that really are safe. So imagine, you know, you’re out there at the Grand Canyon. It’s a dark and stormy night. And you’re like, you know what? I’m going to drink all this whiskey and do, cartwheels at the edge of the Grand Canyon.

Steve Cuden: A good idea. Yeah, great idea.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah. A good. A solid idea. your inner critic may hopefully say, you know what? Bad idea. I’m going to criticize you and say, this is a stupid idea. Okay? So in that case, your inner critic is helping you. Right. It’s a clear piece of that. However, if you’re like, you know what? I’m going to put out this piece of social media or say this thing or write about this. I don’t know if it has commercial potential or this or that or, you know, the million things you might think. And your inner critic is like, don’t do that. That’s stupid. You know, you’ve tried that before. Blah, blah, blah. right. That might be a time when it’s time to quiet the inner critic because it’s stopping you from taking chances that really don’t have that much risk. I mean, falling off the Grand Canyon, big risk. You’re done, right? Putting out a dumb social media post. Yeah. You know, probably not the end of.

Steve Cuden: The world, but may not be helpful.

Jeff Leisawitz: But may not be helpful, too. Right. But that, I mean, that’s the real question. Risk and reward.

Steve Cuden: I.

Jeff Leisawitz: Right. And as an artist, as a creator, it’s about risk. I mean, I’m not saying, you know, fund your movie on a bunch of credit cards as some people have tried, right. Or do something so far out of your comfort zone that it doesn’t really make sense. I’m also saying, just watch that inner critic because if it gets too loud and it will close you down, down, down.

Steve Cuden: Creatively.

Jeff Leisawitz: Creatively.

Steve Cuden: And really, anyway, in particular, the inner critic for most creative people is screaming in the top of their heads going, this stinks. Or this is not working, or how do I make this work? Or why isn’t this working? And the critic is sitting there saying negative, things to you all the time, sitting on your shoulder, yelling at you. And how do you calm that down? You have to kind of work past that inner critic.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yes. You have to work past that inner critic. So the first thing is simply to become conscious of that because these kind of voices that we hear in our heads like that, oftentimes you don’t even know that you’re hearing it. It’s just kind of this noise, right. And then you don’t do it or, you don’t step forward. You don’t keep working on the project or whatever it is. So the first thing is, just notice what’s happening. Okay? The second piece in this is when you listen to that voice, start to change it a little bit, because you are, you are in control of this voice, whether you know it or not. It’s part of you, okay? So one of the things, the voice can speak to you in two different ways. It can give you, let’s just say, a criticism, or it can speak to your identity. So let’s make a simple example. I just played a soccer game, and, my team didn’t win. Is it I’m a loser or I lost this game? Okay? Lost this game is looking at it in a sort of a space that is not based on your identity. It’s like, oh, this is a game, and I lost it. As in, this is a sentence, and it could be better, right? This is a theme. I could develop it more, that kind of thing, which is very different than looking at the soccer game and saying, you’re a loser, I’m a loser. Right? That’s an identity. That’s who I believe I am.

Steve Cuden: And that has personal impact on you, perhaps to the negative.

Jeff Leisawitz: That has all the impact. If you believe that you are a loser, not that you lost, but you are a loser, that will affect subconsciously and consciously, everything that comes in to your mind and the way you act in the world.

Steve Cuden: Bryan Cranston, who’s been a guest on this show, tells a great story about when he was a young journeyman actor, and he would go into auditions. And like most people, they take it personally when they’re rejected and they get upset about it and they dwell on it and they perseverate over. Why didn’t I get this part? Because I should have. I need the money, I need the work, etc. Etcetera. And he realized after a while, wait a minute. If I go in as an actor to an audition, I’m just simply going in to be an actor that day. I’m going to Act. I’m going to use it as an opportunity to show my craft, to work on my craft and so on. And if I get the part, then the part is mine. But if I don’t get the part, the part isn’t mine. It’s someone else’s part. And so therefore, he took the onus off of himself and that inner critic of what’s wrong with me? Nothing’s wrong with him.

Jeff Leisawitz: That is beautiful. That is cool. That’s very well said. And how cool. Freaking Walter White’s on this show. Oh, man.

Steve Cuden: Oh, yes. I great it was a wonderful, wonderful show. Yes. So tell the listeners, if you can, about the five whys, spelled wh apostrophe s. Tell the listeners about the five whys.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yes. So the first thing about the five whys is that it’s a misnomer. There’s only four why questions. But these questions are about delving deeper and deeper into the why, the reason that you want to tell your particular story So the first question, which isn’t a question, is tapping into one of your identities. I am a blank. So maybe that’s I am a writer. Or maybe that’s I’m a father. Or maybe that’s I’m a welder. Or maybe that’s I’m a, chess player. And then the questions sequentially go down and get deeper and deeper and sort of activate different parts and perspectives of who we are and why our stories are important to gift to the world. When you go through these things and put some real thought in it, it’s kind of, Essentially, it’s kind of asking, you know, here’s the statement, and then why is this true? And then why is that true? And then why is that true, and why is that true? Because, once again, when you ask just why the first time, in my experience, which I’ve worked with a zillion clients, the first answer is not the whole truth. It’s an easy answer, and it may be true, but it’s not the whole answer. So you need to keep asking why to your answers until you feel something real within you, something that resonates deeply in you and probably is kind of scary, emotionally vulnerable when you get there. Good job. Now you really have the why.

Steve Cuden: So you need to go through. Was that all four of them? To get to the fifth?

Jeff Leisawitz: Well, I didn’t go through the specific questions, here. but that’s essentially what it is. Yes.

Steve Cuden: So it’s trying to delve into your thought process through the five whys.

Jeff Leisawitz: It’s trying to just go deeper and deeper into what really drives you. Right. So why do you have that corporate job? Because I want to make a lot of money. Okay. Why do you want to make a lot of money? So I can buy that fancy car. Why do you want that fancy car? So people think I’m a special. I’m special? Yeah. Why does it matter that people think you’re special? Because when I was a kid, my dad never paid attention to me.

Steve Cuden: many of us are about status and how important your status in the world is.

Jeff Leisawitz: Right. And what I’m saying is ask why about that? Don’t stop there. Keep going. That last part was, why does status matter to you? And it’s always because of some wound.

Steve Cuden: Interesting. You have a quote that I really like in the book. And the quote is, you must intersect your personal perspective with universal themes of human experience.

Steve Cuden: Explain.

Jeff Leisawitz: Okay, so we are unique people. No one, literally, out of all the people who’ve ever walked on earth, has ever experienced your life exactly as you have, for sure. And my life exactly as I have. And yet we all have experienced similar themes like we talked about earlier. We all want love, we all want safety, we all want freedom, we all want security, we all want redemption, we all want trust. Like all these kinds of themes. So here’s a story that kind of speaks to the intersection between the personal story and the universal human theme. So many years ago, I was back in college and it’s a beautiful Tuesday afternoon in the fall, and I’m like, you know what? I got a cut class. Got a cut history class. Got to get the girlfriend. We’re out of there. We go to the ice cream place, she gets the, ice cream cone with the, you know, the colored sprinkles. Great. We go down to the park. We’re standing on this little bridge. Three little ducks go by. Back in the parking lot, some guys blasting hip hop too loud. Everything’s Perfect. And then she looks at me and she says, you know what? It’s over. Harsh.

Steve Cuden: That is harsh.

Jeff Leisawitz: Harsh. So if I stand in front of a room full of of 1000 people and I say, hey, out there, who has experienced this exact story? You’re in college, it’s a Tuesday. You grab your boyfriend or girlfriend, cut history class, get the ice cream, the other person gets the sprinkles. You go to the park, you got the ducks, you got the hip hop. How many people in this room have experienced that exact StoryBeat? Zero is most likely. Almost certainly the answer. However, if I say, hey, thousand people, raise your hand if you’ve ever been dumped. Oh shit, 1000 hands go out.

Steve Cuden: Of course.

Jeff Leisawitz: Okay, so the personal story is my StoryBeat: In college. All those details, the sprinkles and the ducks and all this and that, right? I. The universal human theme is rejection. Right. When I told you that story you didn’t experience that story I mean, you experienced it in your mind, you know?

Steve Cuden: Yes, but I’ve also never been rejected. Liar.

Jeff Leisawitz: Nice. Very good. You should write a story about that. You know, the Midas touch.

Steve Cuden: The Perfect life. Good luck.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah. So as storytellers, when we can take details of our own experience and understand what the theme is. We can amp up that intersection point such that with the other secret ingredients, including the craft and all the rest of that, we can get the message across. And that’s where the magic happens. It’s almost automatic. I mean, when I told you that story you know, oops, I got dumped. You’re like, oh, right.

Steve Cuden: Everybody relates.

Jeff Leisawitz: Everybody relates. Everybody’s got their own dump story

Steve Cuden: Mm For sure.

Jeff Leisawitz: Right.

Steve Cuden: Or more than one.

Jeff Leisawitz: Or more than one. We all have plenty, I’m sure.

Steve Cuden: And not just in love.

Jeff Leisawitz: You could be.

Steve Cuden: You’ve been dumped in many different ways.

Jeff Leisawitz: Exactly. And again, this is the magical impact of storytelling. My story connected with a powerful human theme, makes an impact in your mind and in your heart.

Steve Cuden: It’s then critical from your perspective to have a story that gets out into the world and does well. when I say does well, it means lots of people are reading it and talking about it and so on, or watching it or listening to it or whatever it is that it has that somewhat human thematic element to it that connects everything.

Jeff Leisawitz: Well, I mean, it’s not going to connect everybody, first of all.

Steve Cuden: Or many.

Jeff Leisawitz: It will connect many, right. But it doesn’t even have to be many. If I write the love song to the woman that I love, if she gets it, it’s a win. The magic connected, like, you know, I don’t need to have it on the top ten.

Steve Cuden: No. And it keeps you from being dumped at that point.

Jeff Leisawitz: Well, once again, well done. Yes, I like it. Yes.

Steve Cuden: Tell us about the other work that you do which you’ve already alluded to a number of times about your coaching and teaching and consultation. Tell us about that.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yes, so I coach and consult with individuals one on one, on Zoom. you know, I do classes online and live sometimes here in Seattle and with organizations, companies, advertising, marketing, really anybody who wants to tell a more powerful story to open minds and connect hearts. So I work with, you know, authors, I’ve worked with podcasters, screenwriters, songwriters, again, advertising, marketing, all that kind of stuff. And, you know, it’s everything from getting past the creative blocks to opening up your consciousness so you can have more creativity to the inner critic, to just playing around with ideas, to the business around all this stuff on and on and on. And yes, I’m happy to do a complimentary session with anybody who goes to my website. You can just sign up and tell.

Steve Cuden: Us your website’s address.

Jeff Leisawitz: Jeffliesowitz.com.

Steve Cuden: That’S too easy.

Jeff Leisawitz: If you can spell my last name. You’ll find it.

Steve Cuden: And so spell it for everyone because it is not your average, normal, everyday name.

Jeff Leisawitz: Exactly. That would be j e f f l e I s. Like Sam. A m w I t z.

Steve Cuden: There you go. There you go. Well, I’ve been having just a wonderful, fun conversation for m. Close to an hour now with Jeff Lysiewicz, and we’re gonna wind the show down a little bit. And I’m, wondering, in all of your experiences, and I know you’ve had many and you’ve already shared some with us, are you able to share a story that’s either weird, quirky, offbeat, strange, or just plain funny? More than what you’ve told us?

Jeff Leisawitz: Yes. well, my Life sort of is all of those things, but, wow. Yeah. Here’s a story that I think will be helpful for the audience. So, you know, I’ve been writing screenplays. I was writing screenplays for years, and, you know, going down to LA trying to sell these things, it wasn’t going anywhere. So I was like, okay, I’m making my own short film. So I dished out the savings account and made a short film. It’s called Mystic Coffee, about a wise and magical barista who offers advice along with her beverages. Okay. So I make this thing. I’m happy with it. I’m like, okay, not bad for a first movie. I’m putting it out to all these film festivals. I put it out, and literally, I get nothing from all of them. Every single one of them turns me down. I don’t get it. I’m like, harsh. Maybe I’m not a screenwriter. Maybe I’m not a filmmaker. Six months later, I get a phone call out of the clear blue. Hi. A friend of mine at, one of these Film festivals showed me your movie. I freaking love it. I want it for international distribution at our streaming Service.

Steve Cuden: Wow.

Jeff Leisawitz: Holy crap. So what happened there? In case you’re not sort of aware of the food chain and the Film industry, it’s essentially you make a movie as an indie, you apply to Film festivals, you get into a Film festival, you win a Film festival, and then you might get distribution if you’re lucky. If you’re lucky, all those things kind of have to happen. However, I didn’t even get into the Film festivals. I thought I was dead in the water. And then, boom. Major success. So I believe the moral of the story is you just do what you do, and you kind of don’t know how you’re going to get to where you’re going. But just doing the thing is another chance to have something good happen for you.

Steve Cuden: So that leads me to say that as advice for anyone that’s trying to make their way in the creative world, in particular and specifically Hollywood, here’s a hard and fast rule. Whenever you are given an opportunity to have a meeting with someone, always take the meeting. It does not matter who it’s with or what it’s about, unless you feel your life, your bodily person is going to be in danger.

Jeff Leisawitz: Steven King’s coming after you.

Steve Cuden: Yes, Steven King’s coming. Exactly. but always take the meeting, because, like, what happened for you? You don’t know when someone will say, you know what, I reject this now, but what else have you got? And down the road, what else is there? And it’s really common for actors to go on many auditions and not get hired, but then for a casting director to remember you six months later for a part. And so that exposure is everything. So what you did is you put your material out. It didn’t get accepted in any festivals, but it wound up getting distribution anyway.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yes, exactly.

Steve Cuden: That’s pretty awesome. So last question for you today, Jeff. In all of your many bits of advice that you’ve given us, do you have one specific single piece of advice that you like to give to people who are either just starting out or maybe they’re in a little bit trying to get to that next level?

Jeff Leisawitz: Yeah, absolutely. So this is also a, sort of Hollywood or LA story I, after college, moved to Los Angeles, you know, to pursue Film and music and all this stuff. And I had this roommate, and my roommate was an actor. So what do you do as an actor? You go to auditions, and this guy, I lived with this guy for a year, and this guy would go out on sometimes three auditions a day, and he just wouldn’t get parts. He like, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. I was like, oh, my God, I can’t believe it. And I asked him one time, you know, after months and months of this, I was like, geez, man, what are you doing? Like, what’s going on? How do you deal with this? He said this one liner that blew my mind. I’m still thinking about it. He says, my chance of succeeding is infinitely greater if I go on one more audition. And I’m like, holy shit, that is true. You quit. I, good luck. It’s never going to happen, right? You keep trying. It still can happen.

Steve Cuden: The only people who don’t succeed, well, the only guarantee of no success is to give, up. But if you keep trying, your chances are always greater. And the other thing that’s very important for people to realize is when you are trying to sell a movie or sell a book or sell yourself as an actor, etcetera, you’re only looking for one yes. You don’t need a hundred yeses, you only need one. But that means you might have to go to a hundred opportunities to get that one.

Jeff Leisawitz: Yes, exactly.

Steve Cuden: It’s a very, very tricky business to be in, there’s no question. And it’s really hard on, on an individual’s soul if they’re not getting where they need to get. But what a great attitude. I think that’s a really, really great piece of advice that, you know, my chances of successor are only going to improve by going to one more. Did he eventually wind up getting gigs?

Jeff Leisawitz: he did. He, I mean, he, you know, he didn’t become a movie star, an A list movie star or anything, but he, he got some gigs and he was, you know, he did what he did what he set out to do.

Steve Cuden: That’s fantastic. That’s great to understand. Jeff Lysiewicz, this has been a terrific hour on story today, and I really can’t thank you enough for your time, your energy, and especially your wisdom in expressing how storytelling helps people in general, and especially for storytellers themselves. Thank you so much for being on the show with me today.

Jeff Leisawitz: Thanks for having me. It was awesome. Thank you.

Steve Cuden: And so we’ve come to the end of today’s StoryBeat. If you liked this episode, won’t you please take a moment to give us a comment, rating or review on whatever app or platform you are listening to? Your support helps us bring more great StoryBeat episodes to you. StoryBeat is available on all major podcast apps and platforms, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, iHeartRadio, tunein, and many others. Until next time, I’m Steve Cuden and may all your stories be unforgettable.