Steve Cuden: On today’s Story Beat

JJ Nelson: Whatever the pursuit is just loving the work itself. Everything else that kind of comes with it can be a drag. There are ups and downs. And also just try to find actionable things to move forward on. So just starting out and you just try it, then just spend as much time writing as you can. If you work with actors and you like them, try to do something more with them. It’s like finding out what’s actionable and moving forward wholeheartedly on that.

Announcer: This is Story Beat with Steve Cuden, a podcast for the creative mind. Storybeat explores how masters of creativity develop and produce brilliant works that people everywhere love and admire. So join us as we discover how talented creators find success in the worlds of imagination and entertainment. Here now is your host, Steve Cuden

Steve Cuden: Thanks for joining us on Story Beat. We’re coming to you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My guest today, J.J. Nelson, is a Michigan native who as a kid made schlocky home movies with his best friend. He then built his comedic chops as an editor of his high school newspaper, writing irreverent Onion-inspired articles mocking the establishment. Somehow, he got away with all of it, diploma in hand. JJ honed his writing skills as an undergrad at the University of Michigan before earning an MFA in screenwriting from UCLA’s renowned School of Theater, Film and TV, where he also received the prestigious Samuel Goldwyn Award for Screenwriting. He interned at AH Will Ferrell and Adam McKay’s Gary Sanchez Productions, where he met a number of comedy titans. He’s since gone on to work with JJ has had projects either set up or in development with Sony Pictures, Paramount, Insurge de Bonaventura Pictures, Broken Road, Green Hat, Virgin, and Jake Paul’s Team 10. Ultimately, none of those got made, which is, truth be told, exactly like 99% of every other screen project in Hollywood. But one of them did. The film Bad Man, an action comedy starring Seann William Scott, Johnny Simmons, Rob Riggle, Lovie Poe and Chance Perdomo in his final screen performance, was released in the fall of 2025, earning JJ his first produced feature film writing credit. I’ve seen Bad man and can tell you it’s an offbeat, dark action comedy with heart and a clever twist at the end. For the record, JJ and I have known one another for more than 15 years as we attended the UCLA MFA and Screenwriting Program at the same time. So for all those reasons and many more, I’m truly delighted to have my friend, the gifted screenwriter J.J. nelson, join me today. J.J. welcome to Story Beat.

J.J. Nelson: Thanks, Steve. As I was saying earlier to you, this is my first podcast ever.

Steve Cuden: Well, we’re going to see if we can make that a good one for you. so let’s go back in time just a little bit. We already know that you were doing stuff in high school, but how old were you when you first started paying attention to movies and TV and the way things looked and operated on screen?

J.J. Nelson: I love like Ghostbusters back, you know, back, back to the future. It was, it was a lot. It was less like the, the, the big sort of sci fi. Like I was like, it’s like Star wars is cool, but, you know, it’s not as cool as like Bill Murray and Ghostbusters. Like, I just sort of gravitated toward, toward comedy and, and like the more irreverent stuff and things that I felt like, you know, was more anchored in. And what I felt, you know, was real life. I mean, I wasn’t, wasn’t busting ghosts, but I could see a world where that was a thing.

Steve Cuden: But you like the comedy edge to things as opposed to the hardest core action stuff.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, I think it was, even at a young age, it’s like, I think people, who gravitate toward comedy are just people who sort of look at life through a bit of a comedic lens as it is. It’s like you sort of, see absurdity and things. It’s just, it’s just sort of the way you’re wired. And then, And then I think that the first movie that they really impacted me in like, I guess a bigger way was movie Lethal Weapon, which, which I actually saw, and I believe, if I’m doing the math correctly, I think I was six years old. yeah, yeah. I don’t think they recommend a, Lethal Weapon for six year olds, but.

Steve Cuden: No, no, six. Six is a little young for Lethal Weapon.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, yeah, there’s kind of, there’s a ruse involved. I was, I was across the street at my buddy Zach’s, house. one night. I think that was like the big movie that was premiering on, hbo. We’re sitting watching TV with his parents and his sister and it’s like, oh, Lethal Weapons on. And I was just like, oh. And I think, Zach’s mom’s like, oh, we gotta turn away from that. And I was like, oh, you know, actually like I’ve seen it, which was a complete lie. And you know, this wasn’t like a premeditated thing. It was just sort of happen in this moment. And my friend Zach, he. He actually, he didn’t realize that. That I was lying. And he was like, What? It’s like, JJ’s seen Lethal Weapon. Well, JJ seen Lethal Weapon. Like, I can see Lethal Weapon. And so his dad’s, like, thinking about. He’s like, well, all right, we can watch Lethal Weapon. So. So we watched Lethal Weapon, blew my mind. It was just, you know, it’s comedic. It’s. It’s an action movie. It’s, It also, I think, feel like, was my first, introduction into, like, Los Angeles or just like this, this place. Is that. That, that to me, it was like. It was like. That was, you know, whatever the world of Star wars was, it was like, it’s like Los Angeles was. Was that. For me, it was like, what is this place? And, you know, it’s like, oh, it’s crime ridden. I better. I got to go there. That’s. That’s. That place is for me.

Steve Cuden: It’s. It wasn’t Michigan. That’s for sure.

J.J. Nelson: It was not Michigan. It was. It was very, very Unmichigan. And, and yeah, so that. That movie just blew my mind. And I remember too, the next day, when I’m going back home and my dad meets, Zack’s dad in the street. And Zach’s dad’s like, so the boys. The boys watched Lethal Weapon last night, but I guess JJ has seen it before. And my dad’s just like, he hadn’t seen it before. And Zach’s dad’s like, well, he has now, but there’s no punishment. It was more just like, oh, okay. It’s like, we’ve opened that door. Now that door is open. And then, so now all these movies that, like, my parents want to see, but it’s just like, you know, the radar. There’s like, well, the kid. The kids, can see radar movies now. So.

Steve Cuden: So at 6, you were watching a Lethal Weapon, clearly. Were you already understanding the world of story and storytelling? Was that a big deal for you?

J.J. Nelson: I’m not sure. yeah, it’s hard to say. I know that when stepping away from that movie and feeling like, oh, wow, like, movies are incredible. This is something that I want to do. Not necessarily, like, this is a professional path I want to take, but it’s like, this is now my play, and this is like, what I’m sort of putting these early creative pursuits into. So what actually I ended up doing was. And it’s funny because at the time I didn’t know anything what storyboarding was. But I started like storyboarding my own movies on prayer paper, you know, and it would be like, I, I don’t even know how much time I’d spend conceiving a concept. Like I, I doubt I did too much of that, but I, you know, I pick a title and then I, it’s like, it’s like actually like the first page of, of the storyboard would be like rated R and then it was like the next page was the title and then it was like, I don’t know how many, like 20, 20 sort of storyboarded, scenes that were all scribbled. It wasn’t anything that was, that I put too much time into.

Steve Cuden: But you were making a crude comic book is what you were doing.

J.J. Nelson: Which is funny because I was never reading comic books as a kid. I would collect them because I heard, you know, the stories of like from my dad about like, you know, if my mom hadn’t thrown out my comic books, I’d, you know, we’d be millionaires. But so I was collecting comics just to think of it as an investment. Even though, you know, every kid from my generation kept their comic books because they all heard the story that you throw this stuff away, you’re not gonna be a millionaire.

Steve Cuden: So were you at that time already recognizing comedy and that you were funny?

J.J. Nelson: Maybe, yeah, I mean I think I was. Yeah. I think I was definitely making people laugh.

Steve Cuden: Were you a class clown?

J.J. Nelson: Eventually, yeah. Yeah, I’d say, I don’t know about like around that time. I think I was, I was a shy in like early elementary before, you know, I I guess I made the right friends or kind of grew up enough to, to be you know, comfortable in my own skin I guess as you know, as an eight year old or something.

Steve Cuden: But well you, you, you didn’t go into stand up comedy. You weren’t standing up in front of crowds of people telling jokes at school?

J.J. Nelson: No, no, I wasn’t doing that. I wasn’t doing that.

Steve Cuden: You were funny in your head and you could say probably funny things to people. So I think a lot of comedy writers are people that go into light hearted fare come from that where they’re able to stand among their friends and make them laugh. I think that’s where a lot of it comes from. so then you eventually started to write funny articles in high school. What attracted you to finally sit down and write? Because writing is different from just joking around with people.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, well, actually going a little further, I guess. Back in the past, I was. My second grade teacher. we started writing. She had us writing, like, our own, like, sort of creative stories in class, like, I think, you know, most classes do. And I remember she told my parents at the parent teacher conference. She’s like, you know, he. He’s really good at, writing stories. And his stories have like, a real, like, beginning, middle, end. I don’t know if she was saying, like, they have character arcs. I doubt. I doubt it was going that deep, but was like, you know, he. He’s naturally really good at this. So, you know, you guys should encourage him to do this because. Because this. This could be, a path for him. Yeah, my. And my parents, you know, were like, all right. Like, yeah. So then. So then they were always very encouraging about me writing. And to the point where it’s really. Actually a great story is, It’s really funny because my dad doesn’t even remember this. I ended up telling him the story, just recently when, I saw him over Christmas when I was 8 years old. I, came up with, an idea for. I really loved the movie Big. And I came up with an idea for the sequel to Big. And my dad encouraged me. He’s like, you know, you should write out your idea for the movie, and then we should send it to 20th Century Fox. I write this letter, and, my dad takes it with a little letter of his own, sort of explaining. It’s funny because I actually have it all sitting right here, because I pulled it out the other day when I didn’t want to talk about this, and, you know, a little letter being like, you know, my son says he wants to make movies. I have no idea, like, in what capacity, but, you know, I think this is a pretty good idea and, you know, be great to hear anything back, you know, And I think, like, a lot of time went by, like. Like half a year or something. One day my dad comes in with the mail, and he’s, like, so excited, and he’s like. He’s, like, holding out this. He’s, He’s like, it’s from 20th Century Fox. And I was like, I. I don’t know what that means. He’s like, it’s about your movie. Your. Your idea for Big. I was like, oh, my God. So he rips it open. He’s reading, and he’s just, like, beaming. He’s so excited. And, And I was like, so what’s what’s, what’s the deal? Like they make movies. Like, well, no, they’re not going to make the movie. But they wrote back and like for me it was just like, well, they’re not going to make the movie. Like, what the hell? Like, so it’s like for me it’s funny because it was like I got my first like, rejection letter. Ah. You know, at 8, like trying to pitch a movie, you thought all you.

Steve Cuden: Had to do is send them a letter and they were immediately going to make a movie.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, yeah, of course. but yeah, this guy, his name is, F.J. dougherty. He worked in the legal department. I don’t know how many letters he wrote back to aspiring 8 year old, screenwriters. But he wrote back and wrote back this really kind of professional letter where it was like, we can’t accept your submission because you’re not represented by a major agency. But keep on writing, keep doing your thing and then one day maybe you will be, and then maybe we can hear pictures from you. Yeah, it was a really, really cool thing for him to do. And who knows? It may have changed the course of my life.

Steve Cuden: It very well might have because what I’m guessing it did is at least it gave you some kind of feeling like you were being paid attention to if nothing else. And that’s a big deal because a lot of people aren’t paid attention to at all. But at 8, you might not have known that difference. You’d know it today if you were getting nobody paying attention to you. But back then you would have not known the difference. In fact, you thought they were going to make the movie. So did you. At what point did you start to think about screenwriting per se? I mean, the specificity of a discipline.

J.J. Nelson: Called screenwriting through even, even all through, like kind of, you know, I guess like teenage years maybe. it was like I was always thinking of it in terms of like, like, oh, like, like I’ll, I’ll be a film critic. Because like that makes sense to me or whatever. It was like it wasn’t like, oh, like I’m going to pursue this. I, I didn’t have any aspirations to act, to really pursue it at all. Like, even like all through high school. And then it was like in college I remember watching the movie Magnolia. and it wasn’t just, just the movie, which, which was, you know, I thought was incredible, but I watched like the, the DVD extras and like all this stuff with like Paul Thomas Anderson, like, and just watching him and Realizing like, oh, this is just like, this is just a guy. Like these, like he’s more just a guy. But it was like, it was like, oh, like just real people just have these jobs. This is just a job people have. And so it is something that, you know, is, is a tough pursuit.

Steve Cuden: All right. So at some point you make a decision to go off to UCLA and apply to school there. this has got to be several years after that. Right.

J.J. Nelson: So I think I actually pretty quickly, after having that sort of revelation, I was, I was like, all right, I, I’m gonna go to UCLA film school for screenwriting. I think at the time it was ranked the best maybe for screen, for screenwriting in particular.

Steve Cuden: It was for a very long time. I’m not so sure it is anymore.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah. Ah, well, they let me in and then, and then it dropped.

Steve Cuden: It just wrecked the whole program. Yeah, you being in it. And they let me in at the same time. And that really wrecked the program.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, yeah, it was like, yeah. it was the one, two punch where you, what do you think you.

Steve Cuden: Learned there that has stayed with you since. Because it’s now more than a decade later. what did you think that they taught you there?

J.J. Nelson: Simple thing of just like learning to generate quickly and just, just knowing. So, you know, we are on these 10 week quarters and you know, we’re, we’re pitching ideas to all these professors, instructors. That first week you hope to get picked for a class, you get picked in a class and then by the second week you’re just trying to figure out your idea. And then during that entire 10 week span, it’s like you’re outlining and writing an entire script and no one expects that script to be great when you’re done because it kind of can’t be. But it’s to learn that you are capable of generating and it’s like the act of finishing being such an important part. And that’s, you know, I think learning that, that it’s just like you, any sort of like two month deadline you might have in the future on something, it’s like, you know, you know, you know, it’s like the stakes are a little higher, but you know, you know that you’re capable of that.

Steve Cuden: so they taught you discipline in that way.

J.J. Nelson: Exactly. Yeah.

Steve Cuden: In Hollywood that’s super important because very little in Hollywood is. Yeah, go off and take your time. No, almost everything’s on some kind of a crazy deadline.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s important. Deadlines are important. And so yeah, so just the writing standpoint, just, just learning to generate quickly and then, and then just, just from the, I guess, let’s say the business standpoint, but maybe the psychological standpoint, the stuff that we would learn in Howard Sewers class and that. I remember one in particular that really stuck with me and as soon as he said it, I, you know, I was like, put that in your, in your brain. as, as gospel, was, the difference between those of you that go on to have careers and those of you that don’t often, comes down to how well can you handle despair? Because there are so many more downs and ups. There just are. It’s like you get a lot of no’s and you get a lot of almost where it’s like you, you think you have a movie and you got financing and then the rug is pulled out from under you, and then you know you have nothing.

Steve Cuden: If you can’t handle rejection, you are not likely to stick around very long, no matter how talented you are, because you’re going to get lots of rejection. I always say to people, they don’t understand that what you’re seeing, as a movie or a TV show is the result of a whole lot of stuff that’s gone before it. And frequently it has to do with stuff that didn’t make it, that eventually turns into things that give you some kind of a thought toward what will make it. And if you think about people like even Steven Spielberg, arguably the most successful director of all time, we just don’t know how many projects are given no’s to. We don’t know that what you see are the many projects he makes, but you don’t know all the ones that didn’t make it. And, that’s just the nature of that beast, is it not?

J.J. Nelson: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Steve Cuden: Obviously, you don’t need to go to school to have a career in Hollywood. It’s not a critical thing. Nobody, I’m going to guess nobody in all of your time pitching to various places or working for various people, no one has ever said to you, oh, where did you go to school? And if they might have said that to you, it didn’t have any impact on whether they liked you or not or whether they were going to hire you. So how important do you think it is for a person to go to school? Is it helpful, do you think, for people to go to school to have a career in Hollywood? Is it useful?

J.J. Nelson: It’s certainly useful. I mean, definitely the most useful part of it is, the community of people that you meet when you’re, when you’re in school. And like our program, you know, everybody, at least in your graduating class, it’s, an overstated way to put it, but it’s like you’re in the trenches together. You know, it’s like all those, those, those like that week one where, where everybody’s pitch, like, stuffed in a room, pitching an instructor to try to get a spot. It’s like, you know, we’re all, we’re all trying to get our number called and, there’s not enough, you know, numbers, you know, for all of us.

Steve Cuden: And that’s a little bit of a life lesson going into it. certainly when you’re, you’re pitching because they. Not everything is a gem. That’s the problem. And, and of course, you’re then part of pitching, and we’ll talk about that a little more later. But part of pitching is you could pitch the same exact thing to 40 people and you might get 38 people that think it’s okay and two that hate it and vice versa. All right, so then you eventually, after you leave school, well, and you want. You go off and win the Samuel Goldwyn, which is a huge deal. so did that help you get an agent of some kind?

J.J. Nelson: Samuel Goldin was. That was a great experience too. it was also too, like a bit of a gut check too. was one of those who were first. you know, there’s all these kind of, you know, moments that happen kind of along the way. And that was, I think, after just getting into grad school. That was the first one where. So that was going into my second year. They announced the golden finalists. I think it hadn’t even hit the trades yet. Just got a call from like, the, you know, the offices just being, hey, just so you know, you’re a golden finalist. So you’re probably gonna get like, a lot of phone calls, people reaching, and you’re comfortable if, like, your, your information is. If anybody asks for it, we can give it out, of course. And then, yeah, I was like, immediately, that day, it was like, I got off that phone call. And then phone calls start coming in and emails start coming in and just all these, you know, managers, some agents, a lot of producers, all reaching out, like, wanting, wanting to read the script. And, you know, the, the thought was, it was like, wow, like, I’ve arrived. Like, this is what life is going to be now. I just. My phone is just always going to ring and everybody’s going to keep wanting to read what I have. You just. Or at least me, you know, as a 24 year old kid or whatever it was at the time. You know, I just figured, well, everybody’s reading the script and everybody’s going to reach out back to me about the script. And you know, a number of them reach back out, but then a number of them don’t. And I didn’t even realize, like, no, you should follow up with every single person. It was just like, I was just so green back then that it was just like, oh, wow. And then so I did get a manager out of that.

Steve Cuden: and eventually you wind up working for Will Ferrell and Adam McKay. And who did you meet there? You say you met all these comedy titans who are one or two or three of those folks that you met.

J.J. Nelson: Well, I mean, that’s Rob Riggle in Batman. That’s where I first met Rob Riegel. it’s it was like every single day. I mean, just, just a simple like one right here is like one guy just walks in and it’s like, oh, it’s citic entertainer. And I’m, and I’m manning like the desk. I’m like the front desk guy. You know, sometimes just random people walk in and they like, they want to like pitch Will feral something. And you have to be like, no, man, you can’t. Can’t. Doesn’t really work like that. You know, other times it’s just like you just see guys just, just come in. You’re like, oh, wow, there’s. There’s him, there’s him. And one day it was like Cedric the entertainer walked up the stairs and so I’m not going to be like, oh, hey, who are you? Who are you? It’s just like, oh, they’re cedrically entertainment. He walks in, he goes to the bathroom and he leaves because it’s like he knew. It’s like, well, this. Gary Sanchez’s office is there. He’s probably driving around you to go to the bathroom. He doesn’t want to stop somewhere he’s recognized. So it’s like he’s just gonna go there to go to the bathroom. Just like, you know, little, little things like that. Obviously, like, you know, meeting Will Ferrell and getting to, you know, work for him. Obviously. I was an intern, so it’s like you’re, you’re essentially, you know, kind of like an extra assistant for, for these guys while you’re working there. And you’re in your, you know, manual.

Steve Cuden: Phones and you’re not writing with them, you’re not doing any of that. You’re at arm’s length. A little bit.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah. You’re doing, I mean doing, doing coverage on scripts for them. Got to watch. They had. When, when I started doing that. and me and also a UCLA student, who I think you definitely know too, at Jason George. We actually, we started that internship together that was like, you know, we became fast friends and we’re just like, oh, like we should. Like that internship was offered. So me and him started at the same time. So that was a cool thing we got to do.

Steve Cuden: What do you think you learned being around people like Will Ferrell and Adam McKay? Did you absorb anything from them that was helpful to you?

J.J. Nelson: I think it was more just realizing like, this is what I want to be. Like, this is.

Steve Cuden: It was a confirmation.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, yeah. And those guys at the time, I think basically the same age I am now, it’s like, so it was like I was, you know, my mid-20s watching these guys do this thing and I’m thinking like, okay, like I want to be, you know, there by then. Obviously, like, you know, it’s hard to beat those guys because those guys are some of the biggest guys. But it was more just like, like just, just kind of watching their day to day operations again, like talking about Steven Spielberg, how it’s like, you know, you have. There’s all these projects that you don’t know that, that he was like involved with, trying to go. It’s like there was a number of projects there that, you know, that they had on the table that like I thought, like, oh, this is going to be such a great movie. And those didn’t end up making those. They, they made this one instead or whatever. And, and even those guys, you know, running into their own issues with like, it doesn’t matter who they are. It’s like they still have to sell a studio on a, you know, a movie, like a really expensive movie.

Steve Cuden: You still have to raise unbelievable sums of money to make these things. Even on the lower budgets, you’ve got to raise huge amounts of money and so they don’t all go, that’s, that’s a. Just a. For sure. I’m wondering, are. Do you think of yourself now primarily as a screenwriter or are you looking to do other things? Are you looking to produce? You looking to direct?

J.J. Nelson: Definitely looking to produce, for sure. Directing. I was something that, I think back, you know, when I had those, those early aspirations, you know, watching, watching Paul Thomas Anderson and being like, oh yeah, I want to do that, I think at the time then it was like, oh, I’m going to be writer, director. But then it was like, once you, once you kind of get out to LA and you realize how competitive it is and realize, like, oh, yeah, everybody’s trying to do that. It’s. And especially with, with being like, you know, someone who was always more of a writer and is more of a writer, it was like realizing like, well, that is what I’m, you know, trying to move forward on. And the directing isn’t necessarily that. but then it was like, you know, being on set for, for Bad man and just sort of really getting to like, soak in, like, the whole process. It was like, oh, no, I absolutely want to do this someday. I don’t think. You know, it’s not in like a, you know, an immediate goal by any means. it’s something that. It’s just like, you know, keep gleaning more and more and then, it’s.

Steve Cuden: On your list of desires. It’s. But it’s not. Most of the time you’re. You’re sitting around writing scripts. Right?

J.J. Nelson: But then also, too, it’s like, you know, as much as I, I love to write, I’m also an extrovert and I like to be around people. And, you know, it’s like, you know, you go to, like, a movie set, and especially when you’re. You’re seeing something you wrote come to life, it’s just like, you know, it’s hard to beat that. You know, it’s hard to beat that.

Steve Cuden: How many scripts do you think you wrote before you managed to sell something?

J.J. Nelson: Oh, man, it’s. I, I have no idea.

Steve Cuden: Is it dozens?

J.J. Nelson: Yes.

Steve Cuden: So the listeners need to pay attention to this. JJ’s been knocking around for a while. He’s written dozens of scripts. What do you think? I asked this question of a lot of guests. What do you think makes a good story for you? Good.

J.J. Nelson: Most movies I respond to, I like walking away feeling a little differently about life. Based on the story that I saw.

Steve Cuden: You’Ve had a cathartic experience and that changes your perspective.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, it could be in a small way, but, But, yeah, just, you know, walking away and feeling like I, I understand, one more smaller piece of this, like, giant thing called life. Because I’ve, I’ve. I’ve taken in this story that was, put together by 100 people all working together.

Steve Cuden: So the movie has given you a new slant on life and you see life through a different lens than before. You saw the movie?

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, yeah. Like a movie, I guess, just a simple example. Like, Groundhog Day, which I remember seeing when it was on theaters right when it came out, immediately feeling like what got Phil Connors out of this time loop was just being a good person and having, like, kind of this perfect day. And I feel like, oh, like the takeaway is like, try to make every day that perfect day in your life. Like, you know, try to, you know, just, just, just be, be open, be engaged, be, you know, approach things with intention every single day. You know, I don’t necessarily think I, I walk away with that lesson as a kid, but I, I, I watch that movie and that’s, that’s, that’s the lesson. I take from it every time I see it.

Steve Cuden: When you’re working, do you work with a certain audience in mind? Are you thinking about the audience at all or you’re just thinking about your own thoughts?

J.J. Nelson: always thinking about the audience, for sure. yeah. So even just going back to, the genesis of an idea, come up with a number of ideas and then try to figure out good ideas from bad ideas. talking about new movie ideas or new TV ideas, whatever it is, figuring out, one, if I can execute that idea, like, in a valuable way. Two, after that, if, say I feel like I can, it’s like, well, you know, what’s the best way into the story? But then it’s really from that point forward, it’s like, okay, who is the audience for this movie? You have to write something that not only are you thinking of the audience, but you have to be a part of that audience. Because, and that, a lot of times separates ideas that I discard from ideas that I move forward on is because even if I think it’s a, if, oh, that’s a, that’s a really good movie idea. If I don’t think that’s a movie that I’m going to line up to see. Like, like I’m not, I’m, unwilling to go to a theater and spend the money to see it, then I shouldn’t write that.

Steve Cuden: I think if you write something that is unappealing to you, the writer, it’s going to show up in the work. So it has to be something that you want to see. It’s something you want to enjoy because you’re writing it, not because of you, but because that’s what you want, as your entertainment.

J.J. Nelson: If you don’t love it, people will read it and know you don’t love it. And it’s this weird thing where it’s like. But it just, it will have the stench of that on it. Like, it just will.

Steve Cuden: Do you find yourself writing every single.

J.J. Nelson: Day, day to day? Absolutely. M. You know, I wake up very early. I just, I get excited. I, I know that if I get up and get right to it, one, it, it gets me going for the rest of the day. So it’s. Instead of like having to be like, all right, I got up, I ate breakfast, I, you know, walked the dogs, and now I’m going to sit down to do it. It’s like if I’ve gotten, up and I’ve immediately gotten to work, I’ve already like, you know, started winning the day in some way. And then it also just gets your, your, your brain fresh and your gears turning for the rest of the day. I like to write every day. And then certain times when, if the thing’s going on or, you know, trips that have to be made, it’s like, you know, you kind of lose your identity for a little bit because, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s. It’s what you are. And then when you take yourself away from that, you know, you, you. It takes, it takes a while to, to, to kind of break.

Steve Cuden: But you get excited in the morning to write. It’s not something you have to drag yourself to do.

J.J. Nelson: Not at all. Yeah, yeah. Not. Don’t have to drag at all. yeah, now I get excited. I, I wake. Yeah, I wake up normally in like the 4 o’ clock hour. and, yeah, it’s like one thing that you. I could, I could stay in bed, even though I probably wouldn’t fall back asleep anyway. or I could come out and I could start writing and I could possibly come up with the best joke I’ve ever written. That is something that is quoted, you know, over time. Like, you know, is that likely? No, but like, is it possible? Yes, it is possible. So I, you know, if it’s the choice between, try to get a little more sleep or maybe you could do something amazing, then just like, why not pick amazing?

Steve Cuden: So you’re hoping to capture lightning in a bottle all the time. the question for me is you’re out about in the world. It’s not like you’re stuck in your house virtually 24 7. And so how do you handle an idea, an epiphany, a joke? Something comes to you in a flash. How do you record that? What do you do?

J.J. Nelson: I’m using my notes app. All the time. But also too, it’s, you know, I don’t wake up and come up with like, oh, that’s a funny joke. It’s, it’s coming. Getting down, sitting out the keyboard and jumping into the scene of whatever I’m writing. I know it’s something that I think it was like Quentin Tarantino, I think, was maybe the first person that I heard, said it, talking about how, you know, as a writer, screenwriter, it’s like you’re. You don’t feel like you’re actually writing the, the characters. It’s like you’re. You’re a court stenographer just writing what they’re saying. It’s like they actually are alive to you and they’re talking back and forth. And so these jokes that I’m talking about, it’s not like, like, oh, I’ve crafted this great joke. It’s like this, this moment of dialogue sparked by the line that came before it from somebody. You know, it’s like one thing, but.

Steve Cuden: You could also get the premise for a joke. Just driving, along the freeway and suddenly you have a thought about how to do a joke. And some people, I say this to emphasize for those that are struggling to become professional writers, screenwriters in particular, that you want to have something around you, be it your phone, a pad of paper or something to record this so that you don’t forget it. Because what will happen is most of the time you’ll forget it. That’s just the way it is.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, no, I was always the pad and paper guy until the phones made it so easy. Yeah, it’s one of the only things I like about that phone.

Steve Cuden: All right, so let’s talk for a little bit about Badman, which is your first produced credit, which is a really cool thing. Tell the listeners what Badman is about. Pitch the story to us.

J.J. Nelson: writing from theme is an important part of, of creating a story. because I think it, it actually gives you sort of like, it’s your guide for like how to move through the story. So it’s like you’re telling this story, of like the events of the movie, but it’s like you’re trying to say something. So the theme of this movie, which actually wasn’t something I came up with, it was m. The co writer on there director, Mike Delaverde, he was the one that, that first, came up with, with this idea of something that we should work on together is like, can, can a, good man. It’s like you Know, stop, stop a bad guy or like, do you have to be a bad man yourself to be able to stop, stop the bad guys? So that, that was like the, the story that like underneath the surface. And we told it, we took there’s a couple true stories that we kind of piecemeal together into this thing, about it’s like this small town, like all sorts of small towns that get overrun by meth distributors and small town police departments that just don’t have the manpower to handle it. so this was a story where it was like these guys who were small town cops waiting for Federal health to come in. It was never coming in. And then one day the sky blows into something sound like, like kind of like an old western hero. and he’s like, hey, I’m here to help you with your problem. You know, I’m, I’m wanting on a big bust in, in two days. Like it’s like, this is like just like the bus he’s doing on the way to the bigger bust. So, you know, we got two days, let’s get to work. And I, and I operate, you know, under you know, I, I Homeland Security, you know, dea, like all those things, are covered under what I do. So we don’t have to worry about Miranda rights, we don’t have to worry about warrants. We know who’s doing it. So we just bust in and we take them out. And all these kind of wide eyed yokels are like, wow, this is amazing. except the one kind of golden boy in town who thinks of himself as a hero of the town, even though he’s kind of the laughingstock. then all of a sudden there’s this big dog who showed up and kind of on his turf. And the power struggle between the.

Steve Cuden: Two of them, well that’s basically the story. He comes in and takes over. He basically takes the case. He basically takes it all over and shows them all up. And we’re not going to give away any of the twist to it, but there’s a big twist that happens in that character, which I think was a very good one, and was very surprising when it comes, which is a good thing. Well, you know, when you think about it, yeah, it made perfect sense, but it was a surprise when it, when it happens. How long did you spend working on it? How long did it take you to write it?

J.J. Nelson: So we, we first started working on that together in summer of 2018. And then pandemic hit and then we, we just, we basically weren’t like. Like a lot of people weren’t working together and we, you know, we work together in the room together. We sit there, and, then we picked it up, shortly after that. And I want to say we finally finished a draft that we were happy with by the end of 2021. and then it was like, all right, moving on to try to get it made. I mean, we specifically wrote a movie that was relatively inexpensive.

Steve Cuden: You’re more or less in one town. You don’t go into a whole lot of locations.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, yeah, we specifically. Yeah, it’s like, you know, it’s like when the location is, or you’re setting for the movie is a town that’s supposed to look dilapidated, you’re already kind of off to the races, looking for, you know, something that isn’t supposed to look flashy.

Steve Cuden: That’s one of the secrets, I believe, of low budget filmmaking, independent filmmaking, is that you, cater the script to the budget, not the other way around. That, you know, you’re going to have a very limited amount of money. And so finding something that’s in a limited location so you don’t have a lot of company moves and that sort of thing. I assume that there’s a. Probably a bunch of shooting that went on in that movie where you’re. You’re in one location that you’ve managed to make into multiple locations.

J.J. Nelson: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. One building was, ah, the police station. It was the hospital. It was it was the like, interrogation. It m. Was. It was. We. Yeah, we did, we did a number of, a number of locations in this one, like, old abandoned building, that felt haunted. And Yeah, so it was like we finished the script and we, In one thing too, obviously, it’s like, you know, you got a. One thing you want to do to get things moving is get a director on it. And Mike decided he was like, you know, even wanting to direct for a while and some of the stuff he had tried to direct, it was like the budget would just kind of get too big or stars would drop off. And it was like, all right, so here’s something that’s small and manageable that we can move forward and if we find the financing for it, you know, hopefully we can make. Make the movie that, that we wrote through. Went to a lot of companies, a lot of places, you know, didn’t get it. You know, it was funny. One of the, the best passes was, I don’t know what company it was. And not that I would say if I did. I think Belfast was one of like the, the kind of big movies that was out at the time, sort of the big awards movie. And, and there was the response back to the Bad man script was. I thought it was going to be more like Belfast. And it was like, well, yeah, no. so then, yeah, eventually found, these producers, ah, this, this company, Hemlock Circle. We had another producer already on it who was helping us find financing and helped us find these producers named Brian Levy. And then those guys, they got the script, they thought it was funny. They, they wanted to do it and they didn’t want to change anything.

Steve Cuden: So. So they didn’t put you through multiple drafts?

J.J. Nelson: Nope, not at all. Yeah.

Steve Cuden: How, how many, how many drafts had you written between you and Michael to get it to where it was ready to show to people?

J.J. Nelson: Most people, ourselves included for sure, spent a lot of time on that first act because it’s like, you know, you have to get the first act right. There’s so much exposition you have to get through. There’s, you know, so many characters you have to define everything you have to set up that it’s like, that has to be really good before you even know if you have something that’s, that’s worth moving on from. so. So we definitely rewrote the first act a lot. And then I would say there wasn’t a lot of wholesale, you know, big kind of game changing, changes that we made along the way.

Steve Cuden: But for, for what reason? For money reasons or for other reasons.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, so. So really the only real, draft that we did where we had to change things and, you know, kill our babies was, was, was for, the production draft. because, you know, we didn’t. We, you know, we wrote this relatively inexpensive movie, but, you know, the budget we had was $2 million. And there’s a lot of action in this movie and it’s, it’s expensive.

Steve Cuden: And so even with $2 million reality set in and you went, whoops, we can’t do everything that we want to do.

J.J. Nelson: We can’t do everything. And yeah, and then you have to. Some of the stuff, that, you know, you unfortunately have to, you have to cut characters, you know, which is like, you know, these characters that, you know, on a script that you’ve been working on for years, it’s like these feel like real people to you. So, you know, so yeah, I had to, had to cut some characters we really liked. one of, one of Those characters was. We had a dispatcher in the. That’s part of the group in the police station. And she was really funny. Rita, ah, Grace, this, you know, this kind of Bible thumping Christian woman. and it was good, it was a good character. But, it was like we just didn’t have the money to keep all the characters and choose one that went. But it was because we were able to get Rob Riggle for the chief and it was like, well, we can actually merge her character with his character because his character, if you see the movie, he’s like this old, like Reagan Republican who’s actually like, you know, he’s the chief of police there, but he’s actually like the biggest coward of the bunch. and then so it just sort of made sense. Like, well, her stuff, some of her lines are so funny, that we kind of repurpose them and have that be a part of Riggle’s character. And you know, it’s like when you got Riggle, it’s like, use them as much as you can.

Steve Cuden: Well, and it’s kind of amusing because he’s one of the bigger humans in the movie, physically big. And he’s a former Marine.

J.J. Nelson: So like this guy was pulling people out of rubble, on 9 11. And you know, he’s like a genuine hero. And he’s playing this car, which I know he really loved to do. So he’s like, he doesn’t get to do this kind of stuff and.

Steve Cuden: Little bit of a chicken.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, yeah. And he, he loved to be able to do that.

Steve Cuden: So how important was it to the, to the actual filming, of the movie that you went out and secured a known star being Seann Williams Scott?

J.J. Nelson: That’s. Yeah, that was a, that was important. And actually for for a really long time, all we had was I think a million dollars of the budget. And we had Sean William Scott and he stayed on and he was like, we’re gonna do this movie, we’re gonna make it happen. And he was, you know, patient with it and we had to, you know, work on some stuff. I mean, he had, it was like he was available and then he had this. He had a series on Fox that it was like, well, we, you know, we gotta kind of wait and see what happens with this because if this show gets picked up, then, you know, the window in which like, you know, he can shoot this movie, you know, narrows or closes. Yeah. And eventually, yeah, it’s like the timing worked out and yeah. The fact having him attached was he.

Steve Cuden: Hoping that the movie would help to shift his iconic stature as Stifler from American Pie.

J.J. Nelson: I, you know, I think. I think so. I mean, I know he loves, he loves that character, you know, and he, he always jokes. Remember, he made a joke like, you know, he was a guy that, like, wanted to be considered for, like, Marvel movies and stuff. I mean, he said as much, and he’s just. He, you know, he hasn’t. Hasn’t been on those lists. And I think, like, the opportunity to kind of show that he’s. He’s got that. And the guy’s. The guy’s actually got, you know, he’s got real dramatic range. I mean, I think it was, you know, American Pie was the movie that launched him, and he’s clearly like, you know, really gifted at comedy, but he, you know, his career could have gone a different way, and people could have never realized how funny he was, and instead he could have been funny, you know, in a sort of late career movie. And people are like, holy shit, this guy’s funny. Who knew? You know, but it just happened to be American Pie that really. That made him a star.

Steve Cuden: I think one of the lessons for the listeners in all this is it is important in terms of selling your movie, especially after you’ve made it. It’s important that you have some kind of known something in. It usually doesn’t happen every time, and there are examples that defy that. But it’s really helpful when you have sort of a genre movie like you do with, Bad man, that you put someone in it that has a name that can carry into not just America, but perhaps overseas. and that’s. That’s what you did. I think that’s a really clever thing.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah. And I think people. People want to see him in this type of role. You know, it gives him the opportunity to. Yeah. To stretch beyond what, what he’s known for. I wouldn’t even call it his comfort zone because, you know, I don’t. I don’t know if he’d look at it that way. but he gets to. He gets to. He gets to do that. And he also, too, in this movie, you know, a lot of times it’s like, you know, he’s. He’s playing it understated. And then you have these other big comedy moments where all of a sudden, like, the Stifler pops out, and it actually is. You get sort of a bigger reaction from people because they’re like, oh, there’s the thing.

Steve Cuden: You know, I love the phrase the stiffler pops out.

J.J. Nelson: Pops out.

Steve Cuden: So how many days did it take to shoot the movie?

J.J. Nelson: So we shot, I want to say total, it was about 22, maybe 23. With a pickup day.

Steve Cuden: So fast. That’s a fast shoot.

J.J. Nelson: It’s fast. It was really quick. Yeah. so when we didn’t even know shot it, and it was like a month before we started, we didn’t know that we were going to be starting. It was all sudden, everything aligned, and it was like, we’re going to be shooting this thing in December and January in, Alabama, with a. With a break in between for the holidays. So it was like Thanksgiving weekend. It was like we, you know, we had a production draft to do and we had to, like, figure out all the places we could cut to get this thing ready. And then like a week later, I think Mike was already there for pre production, but it was like, you know, it was like him, the, like, you know, location, scout and, I think maybe the line producer. And, you know, we’re supposed to be shooting in a week, and then it’s like, it’s like, well, where all the people are we really doing this? And I didn’t even end up flying in. It wasn’t until, I think the Friday before we started on a Monday, that it was like, this is definitely happening, and now it’s time to get your flight and come out. And I flew in literally the night before we started. And then, we hit the ground running early that next day.

Steve Cuden: Well, I think a lot of. A lot of productions are panics all the way through.

J.J. Nelson: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, you got to move. And there’s no, you know, there’s no, second guessing. No.

Steve Cuden: And once that train starts rolling down the tracks, get out of the way, you know, it’s going to happen. And once it does, you, there’s no stopping it, really, unless something seriously goes wrong. But hopefully that doesn’t happen. And it doesn’t happen most of the time. What would you say were the biggest challenges in the production? Was it time? Was it something else?

J.J. Nelson: An enormous challenge, which is kind of where my mind’s going is we, you know, we lost Chance Perdomo, after he finished principal photography. he’s the third lead of the film.

Steve Cuden: He was killed in a crash, right?

J.J. Nelson: Killed in the crash. yeah, just, couldn’t believe it. I mean, the guy was, on his way to having, like, an enormous career and took. And took the role we wrote and, just knocked it out of the park, in ways we could never imagine. and we lost him. And then we still had more shooting to do.

Steve Cuden: How did you handle that? What did you do?

J.J. Nelson: So this was after principal photography was done and we still had scenes that we needed to, to pick up. there’s like three pretty major scenes that we, we had to shoot, back in la. And And yeah, I mean we had to I mean we had to write him out of these scenes. which is one. It’s just like, I mean emotionally it’s tough, like so tough, to do. And and then also in you know, these individual scenes, like two of them, it was like they are scenes where there is no way for his character to not be there. So you are you are finding convenient ways to, to remove him from having, I guess, agency in the scene. and then, you know, and then you’re, and then going on through post production, you know, it’s like, you know, you’re familiar with, with I know you’re familiar with adr, your listeners are. So it’s like. And you go in and especially in comedy you do a lot where you come back and you’re re recording you know, dialogue that you didn’t quite pick up, because of sound, and, or you’re trying alternate dialogue or you see little, especially in comedy, little moments where it’s like we can work in another joke here this, this person’s got their back to the camera so they can effectively say something that you won’t realize wasn’t said in the moment because you’re not seeing their mouth move. And you know, all the actors on the movie, get brought in and they get, they get these second chances to do other, you know, versions of their lines and they get to come in with material of their own. They get to hear us rewrite new material for them to try out. And and Chance, you know, didn’t, didn’t get that opportunity.

Steve Cuden: So how did you do that? What did you do? Get a sound alike actor?

J.J. Nelson: No, we just, we. Everything in there is, is, is everything we had from him. so he, yeah. And then,

Steve Cuden: Well, until, until you told me this just now, I didn’t notice that. So that’s a good thing.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah. And also too, it’s, it’s like he’s so incredible in the movie and just, just an incredible guy. yeah, he could have been even more impressive, you know, in the movie because he would have had all these extra things he could have done and he didn’t get to do that. And, you know, all the challenges that come with, making a movie, which are many and, you know, would have had a long list, but, I mean, I think nothing, nothing closer to this. Well, what.

Steve Cuden: What do you think that you learned in the whole process that you wish to repeat over time?

J.J. Nelson: So we did. There’s a lot of improv in the movie. and we had, you know, some really great improv, actors, Andre Highland, Caitlin Doubleday. And bringing in people like that who can take. Take something that we wrote that we thought was pretty funny on its own and just blast it in the next stratosphere and. And really just make. Really make us look better than we should look because they were so committed and fearless.

Steve Cuden: So you would look for actors who can. Plus work well.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, and just in letting. Especially with comedy, just like letting people. Mike one, thing that was. He was just so, so smart about doing. It was such a great way to do things. It was, you know, he made the hires, you know, department heads, and he made, you know, obviously approved all the actors. And it was like, well, now they’ve been hired, and now they’re gonna do their thing and I’m not gonna medal. So, you know, you. You make a hire and you let that person do what they do, and, then you take it from there.

Steve Cuden: That’s a really critical decision to make, which is you hire people for what it is that, you know they’re capable of doing and let them do it. And the only reason why you adjust them at all is that it’s not working for the whole. Otherwise you let them go. I think that’s a really very smart way to play it, because then you’re not restricting anybody. You’re letting them do what you hired them to do. So that’s then on you to cast well or to hire someone in a position well and not hire someone who’s not capable of doing it well. I have been having just a really fascinating, fun conversation. We’re going to wind the show down a little bit. And I’m wondering, jj, in all of your experiences, can you share with us a story that’s either weird, quirky, offbeat, strange, or just plain funny?

J.J. Nelson: A while back, this was actually 2017 and 18, I was ended, up doing a, project, being brought in on a project to write for Jake Paul, which I don’t. I don’t imagine there’s a lot of overlap in the story. Beat Jake, Paul, like an audience might be.

Steve Cuden: You might be surprised you might be surprised.

J.J. Nelson: Maybe. Yeah. I mean, he’s out there. so, yeah, he was. He was just this. This sort of big kind of Internet star who’s now turned into, like, a boxer. But, so back in 2017, these producers reached out to me, Alex and Doug, all five of the fifth entertainment, with saying, like, oh, I think Jake. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Jake Paul, but I think he’s interested in this project. And they mentioned this project that I had with him in the past. he’s like, would you. Would you meet with him on. I was like, oh, yeah, sure. Like, and I’ll. I’ll. I’ll meet with anybody, and get over there, meet with him, find out that actually he’s not interested in this project at all. He’s looking for something completely different. But I’m like, m. I’m all in. He’s going to finance the thing. Like, I’m. I’m in. Ah. And during this time, it was like, he’s. He’s. They’re living. He’s living in this. This crazy house with, like, 20 other, like, social media stars, and they’re just, like, wreaking havoc. And they have, like, it’s essentially Beatlemania outside. Just all these teenagers, even, like, younger kids with their parents just, like, mobbing the area outside. And every day that was. We’d have to go in there to meet with him. The very first time I went there for a meeting with him, and as soon as I walk outside, I am just bombarded, with deafening booze. And I am just, like, stunned. What’s going on? And I realized everybody out there on this lawn and in the street are all booing me because I was not the guy that they wanted to see. They wanted to see Jake Paul step out of the house. They saw this guy. They didn’t know who the hell he was, and they were disappointed, and they wanted to let him know that we do not want to see your face right now. And I walked through this crowd of people booing me. And, it was amazing. And it’s just sort of like one of those moments where you’re just like, wow, this is nothing I ever expected to have happen, but it’s a great, weird life moment.

Steve Cuden: Well, jj, I hope that never happens for you again, but you’re in show business, and it’s possible.

J.J. Nelson: Yeah, I can take it this time. I’ll be ready for it.

Steve Cuden: You’ve now had the experience of being booed by a crowd. All right, so Last question for you today, jj. you’ve already shared with us a pretty significant amount of, very good and excellent advice throughout the whole show. But I’m wondering if you have a single solid piece of advice or a tip that you like to share with those who are starting out in the business or maybe they’re in a little bit, trying to get to that next level.

J.J. Nelson: Well, I think, definitely a very important thing is, to really love the actual work of whether it’s writing, whatever the pursuit is, creative pursuit, just loving the work itself, everything else that kind of comes with it can be a drag. There’s ups and downs. So loving the work, and also just if you’re kind of moving forward or moving up the ladder, just try to find actionable things to, to move forward on. So if. If you’re just starting out and you’re just trying it, then just spend as much time writing as you can. If you know, you know some people, you give them your material and get feedback on it. If you, you know, work with actors and then you like them, it’s like, try to do something more with them. It’s like finding out what’s, was actionable in moving forward wholeheartedly on that.

Steve Cuden: I think that that is extremely wise advice because if you’re in it for the parties or the money or for the fame or whatever those extra things are, you might find yourself in trouble pretty early on. if you’re in it because you just love to work on it and write movies or TV or just be a writer, period, then you’re going to last for a very long time because that’s what you do whether they’re paying you or not. And in fact, I think one of the things that I hear repeatedly, from successful writers is they would write even if they’re not being paid. And frankly, you have to spend a lot of time writing speculative stuff. So, yeah, you better like it or it may not be so much fun. J.J. nelson, this has been a fantastic show today, and I, I can’t thank you enough for your time, your energy and your wisdom. And, you know, I wish you extremely well going forward on selling many more projects.

J.J. Nelson: Thank you, Steve. It’s been great catching up. Been too long.

Steve Cuden: And so we’ve come to the end of today’s Story Beat. If you like this episode, won’t you please take a moment to give us a comment, rating, or review on whatever app or platform you’re listening to. Your support helps us bring more great Story Beat episodes to you. Story Beat is available on all major podcast apps and platforms, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, iHeartRadio, TuneIn, and many others. Until next time, I’m Steve Cuden, and may all your stories be unforgettable.