Theresa Griffin Kennedy is a longtime Portland, Oregon writer, author and occasional poet. She works as a proofreader, developmental editor and is chief editor of Oregon Greystone Press.“What I say to almost everyone is the same thing: you have to take your time. You can’t rush. You know, I got a lot of advice from my dad, and he would tell me this one thing. He’d say, “It takes about three to five years to write a good book. You have to do it slowly. You have to take your time. You have to be careful.” And I’ve learned through trial and error how right he was.”
~Theresa Griffin Kennedy
Theresa writes both creative nonfiction, including crime profiles, as well as literary fiction, specifically in the genre of domestic noir. Theresa sometimes writes essays about saving old buildings, and the environment, which includes a long essay on the health and challenges of the Mekong River.
Theresa’s the author of the novel, Talionic Night in Portland: A Love Story, which was longlisted in the Clue and Somerset book awards for 2022. I’ve read Talionic Night in Portland and can tell you it’s a mesmerizing take on the noir genre, full of an intense romance and workplace revenge. I highly recommend it to you.
She’s also published Lost Restaurants of Portland, Oregon, delving into the history of shuttered Portland restaurants.
And Theresa’s the editor of a great short story collection called Beyond Where the Buses Run, which includes 2 stories of her own, as well as stories from several favorite past StoryBeat guests like Bob Crane, Joe Coyle, and Andy Erish.
She’s currently working on her second novel, The Angry Garbageman of Thurman Street.
WEBSITES:
THERESA GRIFFIN KENNEDY BOOKS:
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Steve Cuden: On today’s StoryBeat:
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: What I say to almost everyone is the same thing. You have to take your time. You can’t rush. You know, I got a lot of advice from my dad, and he would tell me this one thing. He’d say, it takes about three to five years to write a good book. You have to do it slowly. You have to take your time. You have to be careful. You can’t rush. And I’ve learned through trial and error how right he was.
Announcer: This is Story Beat with Steve Cuden. A podcast for the creative mind. StoryBeat explores how masters of creativity develop and produce brilliant works that people everywhere love and admire. So join us, uh, as we discover how talented creators find success in the worlds of imagination and entertainment. Here now is your host, Steve Cuden.
Steve Cuden: Thanks for joining us on Story Beat. We’re coming to you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My guest today, Teresa Griffin Kennedy, is a longtime Portland, Oregon writer, author, and occasional poet. She works as a proofreader, developmental editor, and is chief editor of Oregon Greystone Press. Teresa writes both creative nonfiction, including crime profiles, as well as literary fiction, specifically in the genre of domestic noir. Teresa sometimes writes essays about saving old buildings and the environment, which includes a long essay on the health and challenges of the Mekong River. Teresa is the author of the novel Talionic Night in Portland: A Love Story, which was long listed in the clue and Somerset book awards for 2022. I’ve read Talionic Night in Portland and can tell you it’s a mesmerizing take on the noir genre, full of an intense romance and workplace revenge. I highly recommend it to you. She’s also published Lost Restaurants of Portland, Oregon, delving into the history of shuttered Portland restaurants. And Theresa is the editor of a great short story collection called beyond where the Buses Run, which includes two stories of her own, as well as stories from several favorite past Story Beat guests like Bob Crane, Joe Coyle, and Andy Arish. She’s currently working on her second novel, the Angry Garbage man of Thurond Street. So for all those reasons and many more, it’s my great privilege to welcome the writer, editor and publisher Teresa Griffin Kennedy to StoryBeat today. Teresa, welcome to the show.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Thank you for having me, Steve. I’m happy to be here.
Steve Cuden: It’s a great pleasure. All right, so let’s go back in time a little bit. When did you. At what age did you first fall in love with books and writing?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: I was a child. I think I started reading. Gosh, I can’t even Remember seven or eight, maybe nine. And both my parents were readers. My father also was a writer and an author. He wrote, uh, several books of Oregon history, and he’s written some poetry. I have one of his unpublished manuscripts, a poetry collection that I’m gonna publish through Oregon Grystone Press. But I was a child when I started reading for the, you know, seriously. And I’ve just always been a dedicated reader. I think I was about 19 when I got really obsessed. And that’s when I started hardcovers, and that’s when I started seriously reading when I was 19.
Steve Cuden: So in other words, you have been a lifelong reader. This is not new to you at all.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Absolutely. But it’s only been in the last probably 10 years that I realized I’m really a book geek and, uh, a book nerd.
Steve Cuden: Many people are and don’t even know it.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes.
Steve Cuden: When did you fall in love with.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Genre fiction in terms of domestic noir? I really fell in love with that when I read, uh, Gone Girl. There’s another book called the Silent Wife that’s also domestic noir, which I just loved. I like books that are atmospheric, really descriptive, that tend to focus on older women getting revenge.
Steve Cuden: Well, we will talk a lot more shortly about Talionic Night, and that falls right into that category. Yes, of course. Your lead character is not. I wouldn’t call her older, but she’s not’s not a kid either.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah.
Steve Cuden: So did you get formal training anywhere as a writer?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Well, I mean, I graduated from Portland State in 2009. I was a double major, double minor. I had a lot of fun. I took my time. I took. I can’t even count how many writing, English and poetry classes.
Steve Cuden: Well, that’s ambitious. To be a double major and a double minor. That’s really ambitious.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah, I was. And then I finished a master’s degree, um, in 2013, in a master’s certificate in 2014.
Steve Cuden: My goodness.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: But my father was really the one person who encouraged me, number one, to go to college because I was 35. Um, my daughter was about nine.
Steve Cuden: Oh, so you didn’t even go to undergraduate school until you were in your 30s?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Right. I walked into my first college classroom in 2001 when I was 35. My father had been kind of pressuring me for years to do it, and I finally did, um, with my mother’s help, um, she helped me as well. I was going to major in. Well, I majored in criminology and criminal justice with the idea that I would become a parole officer, of course.
Steve Cuden: A natural thing for a writer to do.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: And then I realized that that wasn’t going to work. I realized that I really was better at writing, and I really needed to focus on that instead.
Steve Cuden: So what age were you when you knew you were good at it? Good enough to sort of go for it.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: When I realized that I was reading as an editor was when I realized I could be an author. When I started reading books as an editor, um, and that was probably about 15 years ago, I would read a passage, a paragraph or a sentence, and I would think, you know, that’s awkward. I wouldn’t have written it like that. When I started reading as an editor is when I really knew that I was better than some other writers that I knew.
Steve Cuden: That’s interesting that it really exposes you to. When you’re really studying what others do.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes.
Steve Cuden: You can then make a decision that you can do it better or differently in a way that’s at least as good, if not better.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah.
Steve Cuden: Yeah. I think that’s really important. And those that are in Hollywood that are listening to this podcast, know that being a reader is actually a good stepping stone to becoming a great writer. Because you start to read the way.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Everybody else write, it’s absolutely necessary. And There’s a funny YouTube video. It’s a cartoon caricature of a young person saying, well, I don’t really like to read a lot because I don’t want other people’s books to influence my writing. People that say that are always young, they’re generally in their 20s or 30s, and they’re generally uneducated because reading all the time is a prerequisite to being a good writer and an author.
Steve Cuden: No question. I 100% agree with that. Do you think of yourself primarily as, what, a storyteller or an editor or a publisher? Or how do you think of yourself?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Number one, I’m a writer. Number two, I’m an author. Number three, I’m an editor. Number four, I’m a poet. And number five, I’m a publisher. But I don’t know if you know, I mean, I don’t know what’s more important, but I’m a writer, number one.
Steve Cuden: All right, I’m curious. I always love this distinction. What is the difference between a writer and an author?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Well, just an author is just someone who is a skilled enough writer to be published.
Steve Cuden: So professional.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah, yeah.
Steve Cuden: What then for you, when you’re looking at work or you’re thinking of ideas for yourself, whether you’re thinking of your own work or the work of others that you’re going to work on what for you, makes a subject worthy for you to spend your time on.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: I’m a formalist, and I really like formalism when it comes to literary fiction. I really like condensed language. Um, I don’t like kind of casual language. I like language to be really condensed and to pack a punch. And that’s partly because I also am a poet. So I’ve read a lot of poets who write novels, and they tend to be the same. They tend to write their fictional stories with this kind of poetical lean, you know.
Steve Cuden: Have you read a lot of Hemingway?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: I’ve read a little bit of Hemingway, yes. Not a lot.
Steve Cuden: He certainly packs it in. He’s very condensed.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Oh, yes. He was an incredible writer and was really a perfectionist and talked about writing the perfect sentence. He was great. Absolutely.
Steve Cuden: All right, so you say you’re a formalist. Explain for the listeners who don’t know what that means. What is a formalist? What is formalism?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: My language is dated, so I’m 58, but my father was almost 50 when I was born. He was born in 1920. My mother was born in 1935. They both grew up during and after the Great Depression. So my language is dated. My expressions, colloquialisms that I use. It’s just a little bit dated. And so a formalist. I just prefer formalism in my poetry writing and when I’m writing fiction.
Steve Cuden: I got it. But what is it? Can you define it?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Formalism is when you really focus on, um, polysyllabic words and you focus on tight, clean sentences. You focus on kind of trusting your creative impulses to choose unusual words, unusual word choices.
Steve Cuden: Well, there’s no more word that I can think of that’s more unusual than talionic which, frankly, I have a relatively decent vocabulary. I had never seen that word before, and I went and looked it up, and now I know what it means. Where did that come from for you?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: I found this website about seven or eight years ago. God, uh, I can’t remember what it was called. It’s got a really funny name. It’s a website with a lot of really unusual words. And I found it seven or eight years ago, and I got a little journal and I started writing down my favorite words. And I found talionic on this website. And, uh, I just loved it. You know, it means. Basically, it means an eye for an eye, that punishment should match the crime, that kind of thing. And I just liked it a lot. I really did.
Steve Cuden: And so it is a very unusual word. You know, it’s not a common word used in everybody’s daily language. Talionic And it has a biblical tinge to it, doesn’t it? Because of the eye for an eye.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: I’m not too familiar about that.
Steve Cuden: Well, just that, uh, just calling it an eye for an eye is biblical. So, uh, it comes from there. But I don’t know whether the word talionic is in the Bible or not. But it’s certainly not a common, everyday household word. Yeah, you don’t hear people on TV using that word very often or even in just average every “day life. All right. So do you maintain a daily writing routine of some kind?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Generally, yeah, I do. So I’ve been writing every day pretty much since I was 18. But there will be times when I won’t write for a week. It just depends on what’s going on in our life. Um, I’ve been writing every day for probably the last year and a half, though. When I was writing the restaurant book, our life was really difficult. And I was so resentful that I had to finish that book because it was so much work. Writing the restaurant book was like the college term paper that never ends. And, uh, so sometimes I would just revolt and I wouldn’t work on it for seven days. I do something else, but generally I do have to write every day.
Steve Cuden: Did you find that refreshing to go away from it for a little bit and come back to it with renewed interest and feeling?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes, it helped a lot because the restaurant book was a huge amount of work and commitment. And there were times when I enjoyed it. There were times when I enjoyed the writing of it, when I enjoyed doing research. But then there were other times when I really hated it. I mean, it took me three and a half years, and I was writing it during the height of the pandemic. It was just really challenging.
Steve Cuden: What was the amount of research that you were doing? What kind of research did you do?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: It was just, um, researching the 20 restaurants that I decided to profile. So what kind of food they had, um, any notable newsworthy events that happened there. It was a lot of work.
Steve Cuden: It sounds like it would be a tremendous amount of work. Yeah. Did you do that same similar kind of research on Talionic Night?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: No. Talionic Night was a, uh, complete creative endeavor. And I loved writing Talionic Night because it was completely creative. And I didn’t have to do any research. Hardly at all. I mean, I did. I did research, you know, the definition of certain words because I am a perfectionist. But Talionic Night was fun to write. It was funny. I was laughing the whole time because I have a very dark sense of humor. I loved writing Talionic Night.
Steve Cuden: It’s a very darkly comic book, there’s no question. There’s a lot of very odd things that happen in it. And it’s very intense. There’s a lot of intense sexual stuff that goes on in the book.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah.
Steve Cuden: Explain for the listeners what Talionic Night is about. Explain the story.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Talionic Night is a book about sex. It’s a book about becoming an adult after having survived childhood sexual abuse and coming to terms with the anger of surviving those experiences later in life. So the protagonist, Daisy Rose Butterfield, is this nice girl that everyone thinks is so nice, but she’s also really messed up. And then her boyfriend is also messed up because they were both victims of childhood sexual abuse in different ways that were similar.
Steve Cuden: Well, they were taken advantage of by adults.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes.
Steve Cuden: And then they found each other, and off you go to the races. And there’s a whole lot of stuff going on and a lot of emotion in it. It’s a very emotional book.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah.
Steve Cuden: And very intense and physical. It’s a physical book. So what about these two characters, Daisy and Tab? What is it that drew you to them? Why did you decide on these two?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Tab Hunter Blaine is a composite of a boy that I grew up with who died a couple of years ago from, um, a drug overdose. His name was Rowdy. So Tab Hunter Blaine is like a composite of. Of Rowdy. Um, an idealization, of course, but very similar. I wanted two characters with funny names, obviously. Tab Hunter Blaine, Daisy Rose Butterfield. I wanted to incorporate humor when I could, and I incorporated a lot of experiences that I actually went through in the book. Not pertaining to sexual abuse, but shorter scenes, like street scenes, things like that. Um, so there’s five or six situations where I experienced these odd situations, um, in my own life. And I incorporated those in the book because I thought they were funny.
Steve Cuden: You also said it in 2005, correct, right, right. Why did you pick that particular era, that age?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Because I wanted it to be in the early 2000s. I wanted it to be when the Georgian Room was still open in Portland. The Georgian Room was this really fancy restaurant. I think it was on the 10th floor of the Myer and Frank building, and it closed in 2005. So I wanted. I made it so that it was while it was still open, because I wanted to include the Georgian Room. So I just did that.
Steve Cuden: That’s interesting, because you wanted to include a particular place you needed to set it in an age when it exists.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Right. And I also wanted to include it in the 2000s because of the Clinton court departments, which, uh, Daisy Rose Butterfield lives in this apartment complex that still exists. It’s still over in Southeast Portland. And my ex husband lived there in 2006 and seven, and my father lived there in about 2005 or six. And so I got to know the units very well. And it was just a falling apart 1925 bungalow, concrete, constant leaking. It’s still there. And I think they’ve fixed it up and turned it into condos, but it was a dump.
Steve Cuden: Now, someone who’s never been to Portland, which would be the majority of everyone, right, would not know about that particular building. So you had to describe it in a way that it made some kind of, uh, connection with people as they were reading. I think everybody knows. I shouldn’t say that everybody, but most people will know of places that are falling apart or decrepit or whatever. So that’s what you were describing, which then becomes a character in itself, doesn’t it?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: M. Uh-huh. Yes. And I believe firmly in the old ad, do write what you know, you know. So I’ve never been to New York. I’ve never been to a lot of places. If I go there, I’ll be taking notes about buildings and describing them. But I wasn’t going to make the mistake of trying to write a story set in a city that I had never been to.
Steve Cuden: Right. Well, it’s interesting. If you go to New York as a reader, as a great reader, the chances are you will know of certain places you’ve probably read about, if not seen images and movies and TV of the Empire State Building and things like that. So those will be somewhat familiar because it’s a big famous city.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Right.
Steve Cuden: Portland is a well known city too, but not as well as, uh, a New York or Chicago.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Right.
Steve Cuden: And so your ability to then describe that is very important. Now, this was not a detective story. It wasn’t a mystery really. But you wrote it, like you say, tersely. It felt like you were channeling the great noir detective writers like Hammet or Chandler or Cane. Was that your intention?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: No, not at all. And you know, you’re not the first person to say that, which is really interesting. Um, my dear friend J.D. chandler, who passed away in 2021, um, said the same thing. And a couple of other people have said the same thing too. I did make a conscious effort to slowly kind of spoon feed the reader Information, because I, I thought at the very least it would be considered a suspense novel.
Steve Cuden: Well, I think that that’s a really great way to approach writing. Pretty much anything. I think you always want the reader to not know what’s coming next.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Right.
Steve Cuden: And you need to know somehow. But the reader should not know what’s coming next.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Right.
Steve Cuden: And that means that every work of fiction is a work of suspense. Even if it’s not scary or uh, detective or whatever, there’s some form of suspense to it. I think that’s super important. Now you also clearly write short stories, and we’ll talk about those too. Do you have a preference in terms of forming stories that are either long form or short? Do you prefer one or the other?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: You know, uh, I had a lot of fun writing, um, Burnside Field Lizard and Selected Stories that was published in 2018. It was a finalist, ah, in 2019 in the next Generation Indie Book Award. Um, but a guy from Little Rock, Arkansas won that contest. I really enjoyed the short stories that I wrote in that book. But honestly, I prefer writing novels, short novels. I don’t think a novel should be any longer than about 220 pages.
Steve Cuden: Why is that?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Because when they get longer than that, it just, they’ve become number one. People don’t want to read long novels. Um, people prefer novels that are a little shorter. There was some study I read somewhere that said people will look at a book and if it’s 350 pages or 400 pages, they’ll just put it away. Not everyone, but a lot of people do that. I think that you should be able to say what you’re going to say in about 230 to 250 pages.
Steve Cuden: Do you think that it’s hard for people to sustain their interest in reading it?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Um, if it’s longer than that, yes, yes. Ye.
Steve Cuden: That’s what I mean. In the longer book, it’s a little harder for people to stay with it. Especially today, I think, when everything is quick, quick, quick. TV and movies and everything else is quick, quick, quick. Exactly. And so if you have a, a long lengthy novel, it’s a little harder. Unless you’re a beloved author like a Stephen King. I mean he can write a thousand page book and people will buy it and read it.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Right.
Steve Cuden: But someone they don’t know or aren’t familiar with or not, you know, have a real interest in, at least not yet. That’s harder to get them to stay with it.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Y.
Steve Cuden: All right, so let’s talk about your process in developing Talionic Night, or any book, the book you’re writing now or whatever. Where do you begin? Do you typically begin with plot or characters? Where do you typically start?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: I don’t plan anything out. I wait until that muse or that voice in my head tells me where to go. I don’t really plan anything out. Although the novel that I’m writing right now, I’m on the. I think the fourth chapter, um, it’s called the Angry Garbage man of Thurond Street. I did actually sit down and I did write a really generalized outline, but I tend to just come up with an image or a scene, and then I write that out, and then I wait. For example, Teleonic Night. I didn’t know how it would end. I didn’t know that it would end up with her flipping out at her boss’s office, uh, trashing her boss’s office. I never saw any of that happen. And while I was writing Teleonic Night, I was writing the restaurant book. I wrote Lost Restaurants of Portland, and I wrote Teonic Night simultaneously. And it took me about three and a half years.
Steve Cuden: So that must have been both somewhat daunting and yet in a weird way, probably helpful that you were doing two different things at once.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes, Talionic Night helped keep me sane and enjoy writing, even though it’s so crazy, because the restaurant book was just really frustrating.
Steve Cuden: Well, the restaurant book, which I have not read, but I can only imagine that it was full of detail and specifics on things that actually exist. And you have to get that right. Versus Talionic Night, which was just free form fun.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes.
Steve Cuden: You were just having fun at it. So I can imagine that writing one over the other is a very different experience. Do you feel like you’ll ever write another book like the restaurant book?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes, I’ve already started it. It’s called A Second Helping Revisiting Portland’s Lost Restaurants. Um, and I still started it because all these people that I know in Portland were like, oh, you have to write a second book. And writing the first book taught me how to do it, because the history press doesn’t really give you much instruction. So I kind of had to figure out how to do it on my own. But now I know how to do it. And I really did enjoy writing the restaurant book. It was fun. I did my very best. But it was also frustrating.
Steve Cuden: Do you find that there are a lot of, uh, readers of it outside of Portland?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: I’m not sure, but I know that people, um, have bought it for their friends and family because I used A lot of quotes from people in Portland that I know. And so people have bought it as gifts and it still continues to sell really well.
Steve Cuden: Well, that’s the kind of, ah, coffee table book that people would buy and give to friends.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah.
Steve Cuden: As something. As a curiosity. Well, uh, yeah, I ate in that restaurant.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Ye.
Steve Cuden: And I remember that. Do you remember eating there? You know, that kind of thing? Of course. All right, so how do you develop character? What do you do? You came up with Daisy and Tab and these various other characters. Do you have a process for actually developing the characters, or is that also. You’re just waiting for it to appear to you?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: The process is basically some things I learned when I was at Portland State. Developing character means you don’t describe their physical, um, appearance excessively, but you will describe certain things. You include quirks, you include things that they do. You have to include the five senses. Eating, smelling, tasting things, um, touch. Details regarding the five senses kind of.
Steve Cuden: Helps develop character, especially when you get to the sexual scenes. Yeah, There’s a lot of intensity to the way that they feel about one another and how they feel about themselves.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah. And when it comes to sex, I wrote an essay a few years ago called Sex Writing and Literature. I was doing research because I was thinking about writing Talionic Night. And I knew that it was going to be a book about sex. And so I started doing all of this research. And I found this thing in England called the Bad Sex Award.
Steve Cuden: That sounds very British.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Oh, totally. You know, totally British. So they had this thing called the Bad Sex Award. I think it’s defunct. Think. I don’t think they do it anymore. But every year they would choose either an English or an American writer who had written a particularly heinous sex scene. Um, and some of them were definitely bad. What I learned is that really male authors, perhaps with the exception of D.H. Lawrence, don’t really write sex very well. I, um, think that women authors write sex better, but that’s just my opinion. Talionic Night is really an example of hyperrealism. There’s nothing kind of romance about it. It’s pretty freaky. I’ve learned that if you write about sex in an honest way and you don’t focus on the appearance of genitalia number one, that’s always a bad mistake. If you write about it in an honest way. If you focus on certain details that are not offensive, you can get the message across. Yeah, it’s a challenge. Robert Crane said that. He says that I write sexual content really well, and it’s not like I just write it out and I’m done with it. I go over it and polish it again and again and again. I’m really a perfectionist.
Steve Cuden: Well, and Robert wrote for some of the most famous men’s magazines of all time. Yeah. But those were interviews, they weren’t stories about sex. But he understands that world quite well, so his point of view would be very valid, I would think.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: 20 years at Playboy, that’s, that’s a huge accomplishment.
Steve Cuden: That’s huge. Yeah. He’s uh, talked to a lot of people during that time. So you talked about that. You don’t plan these things out in any kind of detail. You sort of go with the flow and when it hits you, it hits you. And when it, it doesn’t, I guess you sit around and wait for the story to come to you. But once you have written the book, do you then go back and look at how you’ve structured things? Do you review that or do you just let it be?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Uh, I know some authors that will do a line by line edit six or eight times and they’ll say, I’m done with it. The book is done. When I did Talionic Night, I did more than 60 line by line edits. That’s uh, from page one to the last page. And when you do it that way, every time you go over it, you see something that needs to be corrected. You see either a typo or you see an awkward sentence or a run on sentence. I just think it’s really important to do that. And so one of my friends, uh, was asking me who edited Talionic Night. And I said, nobody edited Talionic Night. I’m the editor, I wrote it and I edited it, you know, and she wanted to know why, you know, how I did it. And I said, well, I did over 60 line by line edits. So if you’re willing to do the work, um, it can be done.
Steve Cuden: So I’m a great believer in rewriting. I think rewriting is where the art happens.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Absolutely.
Steve Cuden: But it’s very hard to stay with it. Now one of the interesting things that you just mentioned, I know for myself, uh, typically when I hand in a first draft of something to someone, it’s usually been at least 12 to 15 passes minimum before I hand in a quote unquote first draft. Right, okay. But what I do notice and see, if you tell me you have the same experience where there can be, if you’ve done enough drafts, you start to lose the forest for the trees and you do Miss things because you’ve gone over a sentence so many times. Does that happen for you?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: No, um, it really doesn’t because I know when a passage works. I know when it sounds right. I know when it. When it has flow. I just know. And so I’ll work on something. I’ll work on a paragraph for sometimes a couple of weeks. Um, and then when it’s completely tight and completely clean in the sense that it’s really tight, then I know that it’s done. And I won’t go back to it. Just I’ll move on.
Steve Cuden: After it’s been out for a while, do you go back and read it ever?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Oh, you mean like after it’s been published?
Steve Cuden: Oh, yes, after it’s published, yeah.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: And then like, I picked up Talionic Night. Um, I don’t have any copies right now, but I looked at it, um, a three months ago and I was like, wow, you know, that’s really pretty good.
Steve Cuden: You surprised even yourself.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes.
Steve Cuden: Well, speaking of surprises, during the process, were there any moments of discovery or Eureka. I’ve come up with something that I had no idea I was going to get to do. You have those moments?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes. And I think that it happened when I really finished the book. I realized there was so much of myself in it. And I also realized that the character’s anger, Daisy Rose Butterfield, being angry at Gail was really me being angry at my own mother. O. Um, I love my mother. I loved my mother. She had nine children. I was the seventh. And, um, it was more of a kind of an epiphany, like an unconscious thing that I had projected out into this book. And then I realized that’s really where it’s coming from, you know.
Steve Cuden: How interesting. That’s very deep psychologically, I think so.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: You know, I consider the book a romp. But. But its also very dark. There is some humor and its kind of crazy, but its also very dark.
Steve Cuden: Well, there’s a bit of violence in it too. I mean, there’s people pounding on each other a little bit, you know, and so It’s not for 12-year-olds, let’s put it that way.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: No, not at all. And I tell people that, you know, um, I know several people in Portland who bought copies and I always tell them, please keep this up. I don’t want any children 15 or under to read this book. You know, I really don’t. It really is a book for adults.
Steve Cuden: So, uh, now I think the book would make a very compelling movie if made by the right filmmaker. Have you tried to get it to anyone? To get it made, you know.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: I really haven’t because I don’t know anyone. And there’s so much sexual content. If it were ever made into a film, I think that they could focus on the funnier scenes. But, you know, the sexual content is pretty extreme. But I mean, it’s not too crazy.
Steve Cuden: Well, I’m thinking about going back into the 80s where it was a little different. And Adrian Liney, uh, made Nine and a Half Weeks. I mean, that would be in line with this kind of a book. So 50 Shades of Gray in line with this kind of a book. So there’s no reason why it can’t be made. That’s what I’m saying is right. Though I do think today we’re recording this in the year 2024. I think, strangely enough, we’ve gone backwards in terms of being more free with looking at and thinking about sexuality. I think it’s gotten a little more covered up these days.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes.
Steve Cuden: So I’m curious, you do a lot of work alone in a room like most writers.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes.
Steve Cuden: There is a certain amount of personal pressure that you must put on yourself. And then the business itself has a certain amount of pressure to it. And either you handle it well or you don’t. Some people do, some don’t. I’m just curious what you do to handle pressure in terms of self imposed pressure or pressure from others.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Well, nobody really pressures me. That was one of the reasons that I was so frustrated with, uh, the restaurant book because I was already. I had to ask three times for an extension. They wanted me to finish this book in a year and it wasn’t going to happen. And I resented the fact that they wanted me to finish it quickly because I have standards and I knew that it would not have been a good book if I had thrown it together in a year. I needed three and a half years to polish it. In terms of pressure, really the pressure is, um, just dealing with daily life and then finding the time to write, which I always do every day. I mean, my daughter’in our 30s. My husband, uh, is 88. He’s almost 30 years older than me. And we have cats, we have two little dogs. Um, so just dealing with the day to day in terms of taking care of the house and then coming in here in my little sanctuary and, um, finding the time which I do every day to write. Like Yesterday I spent 10 hours in here polishing my book.
Steve Cuden: That’s a lot of time writing.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah, but it’s when you love it, when you love, uh, what you’re doing, the time Just goes by so quickly.
Steve Cuden: Do you get in that zone and you lose track of time?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes. I think they call it flow. It’s called flow. Flow.
Steve Cuden: The zone. There’s all kinds of, uh.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: The zone. You just get in there and, you know, you look at the clock and it. It says it’s like, you know, 5pm and then you look an hour later, you look at the clock and you think it’ll be 6:00 and it’s like 11:00 and you’re like, where did the time go?
Steve Cuden: Exactly Right. That’s the best. When you get into that flow or zone, that is like the best, because things just happen in that moment. You lose total track of where you are in time.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah.
Steve Cuden: And that is a wonderful thing when that happened. So let’s talk about being an editor, because you’ve done a bunch of that too. Tell listeners what an editor does beyond just fixing sentences.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Well, um. Um, you know, I can proofread, which is just really minor changes, and I’ve done that. I’ve had editing jobs for other writers and authors where I’ve proofread, proofed their manuscript. I’ve also worked as a developmental editor, where you actually write, write in content and you do a little bit more. I do that a lot for my husband’s books because he will leave out certain details and I have to flesh out passages. But, uh, I consider myself a very good editor because I’m a little bit of a perfectionist. Uh, I have weaknesses. I sometimes don’t use apostrophes correctly. I have a real issue with apostrophes.
Steve Cuden: Well, there’s that famous book, I think, called Eats, shoots and leaves. Right. Isn’t there a book titled that? Yes, E. Shoots and leaves. And if you leave the. Or better yet, I like to teach. There’s a famous sentence, let’s eat, comma, grandma, as opposed to you leave the comma out, and suddenly it’s let’s eat, grandma. That’s not so good.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Exactly. There’s another great book called the Transitive Vampire, which is about grammar. Great book. And then, of course, there’s Drunken Whites, the Elements of Style, which I have a wonderful copy of that. A hardcover.
Steve Cuden: Describe the process of working with a publishing house.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Um, I only really did it one time, which was the history press for the restaurant book. Because I handle everything in terms of Oregon Grytonone Press, um, publishing books. But it’s difficult because, you know, they had a timeline. They wanted me to finish this book in a year, and I couldn’t do It. I couldn’t finish it in a year. The restaurant book. It’s difficult working with a publishing house because they call the shots. They decide, um, what the title is going to be. They decide, uh, know, they make a lot of decisions. They were actually pretty good to me in terms of allowing me to have input on the COVID They designed, I think three or four covers and I chose the COVID that had the yellow. And uh, it’s just a challenge working with a publishing house because publishers are also editors and so they call the shots. Just like when I’m doing a book to be published by Oregon Grystone Press, I have to call the shots.
Steve Cuden: That’s your own imprint, right?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah. Because, you know, I’m 58, I’ll be 59 in a month or so. I’ve been writing since I was 18. I’ve been writing for over 40 years, which is longer than some kids have been alive, for sure. Um, and so, you know, there’s a couple of people, a couple of young writers. Number one, I’ve helped a lot of young writers by editing their work for free. I’ve done that many times on the Internet without tooting my horn about it. I’ve just done it behind the scenes because I think it’s important. But there were a couple of young writers who challenged me m About what I was doing. And I had to explain to them that I know more about writing and editing than they do. You know, sometimes you just have to.
Steve Cuden: Say it, you know, well, that’s the age old issue. And of course you’re able to do that in a printing situation because you are the author and you’re the copyright holder.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah.
Steve Cuden: In Hollywood, which is very different, the studios or the network’s own or some, you know, a producer, someone else owns the copyright.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Right.
Steve Cuden: And they dictate to the writer what to do. So you are correct in your situation to be able to say, no, it’s my decision, it’s my book.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah.
Steve Cuden: A publisher could I guess say, well, if you’re not going to pay attention to what we want to do, then we’re not going to publish this book, take it elsewhere.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Right. And see, that’s the other thing. I’m totally okay with that too because, um, I wrote an article about the pandemic and it was published in the Portland Monthly magazine. And the woman that helped me with it, her name is Margaret Saylor. And you know, I wanted to write this article. It was just a short article about the pandemic and about how my husband and I had tried to get to a prison, to visit a relative in prison, and how we couldn’t because of the pandemic. So I asked her for a lot of instruction. I wanted her to just tell me, you know, what do you want me to focus on? And she was able to give me a lot of really good instruction. And I just did what she said. I had no problem with that. So you have to be able to collaborate with people. You have to be able to work with people. You have to be flexible. There are some things that, as an editor and a publisher, um, of Oregon Grystonone Press. Things. There are some things that I have to do. I have to make a decision on myself, but I’m really flexible. And there’s a young woman, her name is Bethany Umbarger. She’s a poet here in Portland. And I’m going to be. We’re working together to publish her book of poetry and prose. Nobody buys poetry. She knows that. I know that. But she’s a wonderful writer, a wonderful poet and a wonderful writer. She’s also part of the LGBTQ community, and she’s just a beautiful girl. She’s my daughter’s age. You know, we’ve been working on this book for, like, the last five, six years, and we’re finally getting to a point where next year, in 2025, I’m going to be able to publish it. And I’ve given her a lot of control because she’s the writer. And when it comes right down to it, uh, you know, bickering over where you place a comma isn’t really that important.
Steve Cuden: No, that could be quite trivial if you waste a lot of time on it, that’s for sure.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yah.
Steve Cuden: Well, you’re talking about working with people now. So you’ve also published books of short stories, including beyond where the Buses Run.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes.
Steve Cuden: So where did these authors come from? It’s Bob Crane. It’s Carrie Hildebrand. And so, um, on. Where did these authors come to you from?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Well, the project started out. I wanted to put together an anthology of short fiction.
Steve Cuden: Okay.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: So I did a shout out in Portland and asked Portland writers that I know if they were interested. No one responded. Bob was the first person to respond. Robert Crane. Bob Crane to his friends. So I call him Bob and I call him Robert simultaneously. He sent me a message, and he said, you know, I’ve got this story. I’d love to contribute. And I was like, all right, you know, good. Yay. And so Bob, because he knows everybody, he got in touch with, um, Christopher Fryer. He got in touch with. With Joe Coyle. He used some fiction from his late wife, Carrie Hildebrand. And I, um, had started out wanting to call the book. The title of my short story in the book, which is Squirrely Conversation Outside Bishop’s House. It’s still on Facebook. You know, I’m putting together this anthology. You know, who else wants to contribute? It’s called Squirrely Conversation Outside Bishop’s House. And I wasn’t even finished with the story yet. And so he was the first to contact me. And then he got me in touch with Joe Coyle and Christopher Fryer and, um, also his niece, Megan Behar, um, wrote a short piece. And then he got me the information regarding Carrie’s short stories. She passed away. She was his first wife. So we put together this really fabulous book. And I wanted Joe and Christopher Fryer and Bob Crane to understand that this was a collaboration, that I’m not a control freak. I don’t want to rule the world. I take instruction well. And so I said, you, what do you think about the title? Do you guys have any ideas? Do you want a different title? And so they thought about it, and they came up with this great title, beyond where the Buses Run. So I was like, that’s so great. And then I said, we’ll just add stories to the end of it. You know, beyond where the Buses Run stories. So people have an idea that it’s fiction. So we did that. And it wasn’t until after the book was published that Robert Crane told me that it was an expression that had been used by, um, Bruce Dern, the actor.
Steve Cuden: Really?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Robert Crane had written this book. He had d. Written a biography of Bruce Dern. And they met with him and they talked with him, and he used this expression, well, those people that live beyond where the buses run. So that’s how he came up with it. And I was like, wow, that’s so cool, you know?
Steve Cuden: Well, that is cool that it comes from Bruce Dern. I think that’s really cool.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah.
Steve Cuden: What would you say is your favorite story from the book, aside from your own, you know?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: I love that story. And have you read it?
Steve Cuden: I’ve read it, yeah.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: I love that story. And it took me about three years to finish it. I love that story. Well, there’s so many stories in that book that I really love. Um, Christopher Fryr’s story is amazing. It’s just beautiful. You know, it’s a wonderful story about, uh, the hunter. You know, I loved Robert’s story, Wing Ding Wining. And I Remember when I was reading it, I was reading it and I was wondering where it was going. And I was looking for sections of the story that I knew would be reflections of his life. And it kind of comes in the middle when he’s describing his father, the character is describing his father as an actor and the makeup he’s wearing. And I thought, wow, that’s absolutely Robert describing his father, Bob Crane, you know, 100%. And it was moving, very moving.
Steve Cuden: I also like busing home to the crows and ravens of Ruby Road. You like to write long titles, don’t you?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes. You know, I had been chatting with Robert and he said, you know, you should probably write another story, you know, And I thought, well, okay, I totally just conjured that story. I don’t know how I did it, but it was fun writing that story.
Steve Cuden: Well, there’s a little bit of a theme that’s not dissimilar to Teleonic Night because you’ve got a, uh, woman sort of seeking a kind of payback for a failed romance.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Right.
Steve Cuden: So I think that that’s. You’ve got a little thematic thing going on there. I assume that’s going to be part of your for yourself.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Well, it’s true. It’s like, you know, when I was a young woman, I think I was 27, and I was with my second husband, he had an affair with this very complicated blonde woman. O and it was a real nightmare. And, uh, it was probably, it was 1993, my daughter was a year old. It was one of the worst years of my life. And I know that she probably regrets it now. I did several things that I regret now. So I do have kind of a fixation about, uh, infidelity a little bit.
Steve Cuden: Well, that’s clear. And there’s nothing wrong with that if you could make hay with it. That’s for sure.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Exactly.
Steve Cuden: So I’ve been having this fabulous conversation with Theresa Griffin Kennedy for close to an hour now. M and we’re going toa wind the show down just a little bit. And I’m wondering, you’ve already told us all these wonderful stories. Not only real, but also nonfictional as well. But I’m wondering, do you have a story that you can share with us that’s either weird, quirky, offbeat stranger, just plain funny?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Well, probably the most interesting story from Talionic Night is the section, uh, where I’m describing Daisy Rose Butterfield walking down, I think, Fifth Avenue. And this would have been in 2005. So I think it was when she was the character outside of this dollar store, this, uh, not a dollar tree, but just kind of a 99 cent store used to be there on 6th Avenue. And this was actually me. I was walking down. So I used this experience that I had and I incorporated it into the book. I was walking down the street and there was a drunk man who was probably in his late 60s. He was tall and thin, and he was walking and he was wildly drunk and just wild eyed. I mean, he looked demonically possessed. And I was scared. And I’m walking north on 6th Avenue and he’s walking south. And I just sat down. There’s a wooden bench across from this store. And I sat down as he passed me. And he said something I’ll never forget. And it’s in the book. Um, he’s walking by me and he bellowed, the more evil you get, the, um, more you enjoy it. And it was really scary. I sat there and I thought, I just know I’m gonna use this in some kind of a story or a book. And I went home and I wrote it down. That’s exactly what he said. It was one of those things you.
Steve Cuden: Just never forget that is frightening to see somebody who’s maybe a little bit out of control. And how do you protect yourself at that moment? Somehow he kept going by, I assume.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yeah, I sat down on the bench and I just kind of looked at my phone and I, um. He just walked by and I made myself small, and he was just looking ahead and he was just wild. He was an old white guy. Just terrifying.
Steve Cuden: Wow. Well, okay. Stay away from those folks, that’s for sure. All right, so last question for you today, Teresa. You’ve shared with us a huge amount of very interesting and useful advice throughout the show. But I’m wondering, is there a single solitary piece of advice that you like to give to those who are starting out in the business, or maybe they’re in a little bit trying to get to the next level as a writer, as an editor, whatever this would be.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: For young writers and young writers who want to become authors. What I say to almost everyone is the same thing. Absolutely. Don’t rush. You have to take your time. You can’t rush. I got a lot of advice from my dad when, um, I was in my teens and twenties. And he would tell me this one thing. He’d say, it takes about three to five years to write a good book. You have to do it slowly. You have to take your time. You have to be careful. You can’t rush. And I’ve learned through trial and error how right he was. So my biggest advice would be, absolutely, don’t rush because you’ll regret.
Steve Cuden: The key is then, um, patience, isn’t it?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes, yes, patience, uh, and being patient.
Steve Cuden: With yourself, which is sometimes really hard to do.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes. And also not believing other people when they say, you can’t be a writer or why don’t you get a regular job? I used to be told that all the time. When are you going to get a regular job? Meanwhile, my father, Dorsey Griffin, was the only person that encouraged my writing. He was the only one. And I’m a writer today because of him.
Steve Cuden: Isn’t it wonderful that you had that?
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes, definitely.
Steve Cuden: Because a lot of people don’t even have that. You know, you just. If you’re determined to be an artist of some kind, be it a writer or painter, whatever it is, you have to be self disciplined and work within yourself to make sure that if you believe in yourself, that you carry forward with your dreams.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Yes.
Steve Cuden: Teresa Griffin Kennedy, this has been an absolutely fabulous hour and I can’t thank you enough for your time, your energy and your wisdom. Just been terrific talking to you.
Theresa Griffin Kennedy: Thank you so much. This was really fun.
Steve Cuden: And so we’ve come to the end of today’s StoryBeat. If you like this episode, won’t you please take a moment to give us a comment, rating or review on whatever app or platform you’re listening to. Your support helps us bring more great StoryBeat episodes to you. StoryBeat is available on all major podcast apps and platforms, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Tune In, and many others. Until next time, I’m Steve Cuden, and may all your stories be unforgettable.
No one can write like my wife. Great interview.
Thanks, Don, for your wonderful thoughts. I agree!
Being interviewed by author and pod-caster Steve Cuden was so fun and engaging. It was rewarding talking with someone about writing and the challenges of the publishing world, who completely understands where I’m coming from. Reflecting on my years as a reader and writer, while being interviewed by Steve made me see things I’d never even considered before. Thank you to StoryBeat, for giving me the opportunity to share my experiences as an editor and publisher in such a free and positive atmosphere!
Thanks so very much, Theresa! It was great fun chatting with you about writing and writers!