Steve Cuden: On today’s StoryBeat:

Okema T. Moore: Nine times out of ten, your next level is sitting next to you. Everybody is always trying to get to the top person, but usually your next level is right here. Or is the person under the top person? Because I can guarantee you I’ve never met Oprah, but I’ve worked for her three times because of who I was next to. So I would tell people all the time, look to your left, look to your right. That is your way up.

Announcer: This is story with Steve Cuden, a podcast for the creative mind. Storybeat explores how masters of creativity develop and produce brilliant works that people everywhere love and admire. So join us as we discover how talented creators find success in the worlds of imagination and Entertainment. Here now is your host, Steve Cuden.

Steve Cuden: Thanks for joining us on story. We’re coming to you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My guest today, Okema T. Moore, is an Emmy nominated PGA producer and rising director. She’s created unscripted and branded content for Lifetime, Netflix and Disney Marvel, including Beat Bobby Flay and the Kitchen on Food Network, Oprah’s Color of Care, founding in Color on Peacock and Nomad with Carlton McCoy on CNN. Most recently, she developed and produced down in the Valley for Stars and was lead producer on Chocolate with Sprinkles for the AFI’s directing Workshop for Women, which won the HBO award at the American Black Film Festival. Okema was a directing fellow for minorities and film’s branded Lab, a semi finalist for the Black House Producers Lab, a second rounder for the Sundance producers track, and a fellow for both the Stowe story and the Black Magic Creative Producers Labs. She was a finalist for the Pano production microgrant, received a writing fellowship to create her first tv pilot with writers Boot camp and women going Places, and her short script had a live staged reading at the Essence Film Festival in 2024. Okema proudly serves on the board of New York Women in Film and TV and the Black TV and Film Collective. She’s committed to lifting while she climbs, building up women, queer, iPoc, Caribbean, and black creatives. She also happens to be a very fine actress. So for all those reasons and many more, it’s a truly great honor and privilege for me to welcome the prolific, multi genre, incredibly talented Okema T. Moore to StoryBeat be today. Okema, welcome to the show.

Okema T. Moore: I tell you, I was listening like, who’s he talking about?

Steve Cuden: Hi, talking about you.

Okema T. Moore: You don’t think about all those things when you’re doing them. You’re just trying to, one, pay bills and two, pay your spirit so you just kind of do it, and then you hear it out loud. It’s like, man, I’ve done a bunch. Huh?

Steve Cuden: Okay, you’ve done a bunch. And what a great phrase to pay your spirit. I think that’s great.

Okema T. Moore: Well. Cause I worked on Wall Street for a long time, and, child, all it did was pay my bills. My spirit was absolutely in the deficit.

Steve Cuden: And now that you’re in the arts full time, it’s a little different, isn’t it?

Okema T. Moore: Yes. Now my spirit is in all kinds of wonderful overflow, and my bills are in a deficit, but it’s fine.

Steve Cuden: Well, you know, if you keep doing what you’re doing, your bills will take care of themselves.

Okema T. Moore: Well, they’ve actually been pretty good for the last five years, but this last year, boy, post strike has been rough.

Steve Cuden: Oh, I bet. Were you out on strike with everybody else?

Okema T. Moore: So, funny enough, I was filming down in the valley because it was unscripted, so we were legally able to film and not be able to be, you know, crossing any lines or problems. Cause I’m sag aftra pga, yada yada. So I was like, we can’t be scabbing out here. I need jobs. But we were shooting for a majority of the time that the strike was happening. So what I usually do is I, through my s corp, give, filmmaker and creative grants. So I was making money, and a lot of people weren’t, so I was giving quite a bit of it away, but then my money went away, and I was like, well, nobody’s giving me any, so I’m gonna just relax.

Steve Cuden: In my opinion, you did the right karmic thing, and that will pay back dividends later.

Okema T. Moore: I agree, because I can also say that since I left corporate America, I don’t know that I would have been able to float myself. It’s going on ten months this long, without being, you know, quasi destitute, m prior to being in a space where I was able to make enough to be able to have a stash to do that. So I’m grateful.

Steve Cuden: That’s a real psychic change for you. That’s really in your psyche. It really makes a difference.

Okema T. Moore: It lets me know I’m where I’m supposed to be, even when it feels like I don’t. I quit every week, but, I mean, I’m still here.

Steve Cuden: But you’re fulfilling your heart’s desire.

Okema T. Moore: I am. And I’m also able to, like, magnify and amplify voices and stories of people that may not be able to have that. I’m also able to bring home information for folks that look like me that may not get into the rooms and spaces that I’m blessed to get into.

Steve Cuden: So let’s go back in time just a little bit and talk about your real history. You’ve been at the acting, producing, and directing thing for a little while now, and I wonder, how old were you when the bug first bit you? I want to be in the arts, in the Entertainment arts, no less.

Okema T. Moore: Well, so I can remember probably singing before I could talk. I have a mother who has a beautiful voice, and when she was a teen, she would. She was modeling and acting and singing. And then. My biological father is a roots artist and still is in Guyana. And so he plays the guitar, and he also sings. And so I probably was singing before I was talking, but I had also a very young mother, and so my mother and my father never married. My father stayed in Guyana, which is in South America, and my mom came back to the US. And by the time I came back, my mom was still fairly young, trying to, you know, figure out this whole single parent thing now. And, thank God I have. I had amazing grandparents who were like, well, just put her in stuff.

Steve Cuden: And so just put her in stuff.

Okema T. Moore: So they put me in everything. Jazz, tap, ballet, dance, you know, acting, singing. Like I was. If it was an extracurricular activity within, you know, a, 20 miles radius, I was probably in it.

Steve Cuden: Was there anything that you were objecting to, or did you, like, at all?

Okema T. Moore: I think I was an only child, and this was, you know, this was the eighties, so there was no Internet. There was, you know what I mean? It was like, me, my teddy Ruxpin and like, a vhs tape. And so, listen, I used to put all my mother’s r and b, or I used to put her r and b tapes into my teddy Ruxpin, and we would have all kinds of concerts.

Steve Cuden: So that’s great.

Okema T. Moore: I got into. I wound up getting cast on Sesame Street at six and about 84, from being in all these things. And, that’s when I was like, ooh. But then one year, I must have been about eight, I was back in Guyana for the summer, and, like, we had, like, two channels, right? Because, again, this is like the eighties, right? And it’s a third world country at that time. It was still very much a third world. Well, according to the GDP, is still a third world country, but it was third world. Third world country back then. And so how many times you gonna watch solid gold and watch somebody do this, right? And so I found this vhs tape of, Whoopi Goldberg’s one woman show. Welcome to the spook show. And I was probably way too young to watch it, but it was this dark skinned woman with fluffy hair, like me. And she was, like, up there by herself playing this entire show of characters. And I was like, I want to do that now. I had no idea at that time that she had made history, because as a black woman, she had written, produced, directed, and starred in this thing by herself on television. And who knew that later on, I would be pursuing these different things? I didn’t even know black women could do those things growing up, you know what I mean? So it was very serendipitous, I guess. But literally, I think that Whoopi Goldberg’s one woman show was when I decided that I wanted to do more than just be a grouchketeer.

Steve Cuden: Have you had a chance to meet her?

Okema T. Moore: I’ve never met her. I think the day that I do, I don’t know if I’m going to be able to speak. Like I don’t get starstruck. And I’ve been blessed to work with a lot of a plus talent. But I think that between Whoopi and Oprah. Cause I’ve also worked for Oprah’s company several times, but I’ve never met her.

Steve Cuden: Right.

Okema T. Moore: And so I think those are two women who’ve had incredible impacts on my life and career, and they have no clue I exist, but that’s okay.

Steve Cuden: Well, they are both massive stars.

Okema T. Moore: They are.

Steve Cuden: So you just have to treat them just like people.

Okema T. Moore: Oh, I’m sure. I think just. I’m just a, you know, super sentimental, mushy person in general. So I’m gonna cry. Like, I can tell you now, the minute I meet Whoopi, I’m going to cry. I know I’m. She’s gonna probably wonder why I’m crying. And please get this soggy young lady away from me. I’m probably gonna cry.

Steve Cuden: All right, so how long had you been at doing what you’re doing right now before you thought to yourself, you know what? I am really good at this, and I’m absolutely sure that I’m a, pro in what I’m doing. How long did it take you to feel that way?

Okema T. Moore: Well, the first time I produced something, I didn’t know I produced it. I just didn’t want to. I was in a web series before they were called web series. It was like 0607, and it was so discombobulated. And I’m just a, glutton for order. And I didn’t want to quit because it was my first, like, lead role as an adult, and I was like, so let me help this lady organize this. Cause I’m a quit. And I feel like everybody else is, too. And so by the time we were done, she was like, I’m gonna give you producer credit. And I was like, why? And she was like, cause you produced it. I was like, that’s what it’s called. I was just trying to make sure none of us quit. And so when I realized that all it is, well, you know, the easy part of it at that point in my mind was, oh, just organizing stuff means you’re a producer. I should do this producer thing. And so I started to figure out what that was. And then I went back to school. I went to NYU. I couldn’t afford Tisch, so I did a non matriculated program back before certificates were a big thing, back in 2012, and I got a producing certification. I was like, oh, okay. That’s how you do this. And so then I knew that I, you know, I loved acting. I knew that that would always be there. But I was like, you know what? I can really do this producer thing. And so I started producing, like, my own stuff and then stuff for my friends. And by 2015, I knew that, you know, hedge funds and Wall Street was great, but it wasn’t. And so I took the leap and I quit, and I started doing it full time.

Steve Cuden: And did you feel like you were in it right away? Did it make sense right away to you?

Okema T. Moore: no. I left my very nice six figure job at a hedge fund. If you saw inventing Anna Fortress, that place that she tried to swindle, that was the last corporate job that I had. I was working for the global head of sales at Fortress.

Steve Cuden: Wow.

Okema T. Moore: and so I left there to become a $10 an hour pa at the age of 36. So, no, I was not a professional and idiot when I first started, I was asking people, did they want their coffee your color or mine? but I knew that I would get there. And because I had made a lot of my own stuff before I quit and went full time, I knew I had to start from the bottom, because nothing I made had done anything in the big five or Ydez made any, like, major national noise, so nobody cared. It was like, you can get this coffee. I, don’t. You could produce this cup of coffee.

Steve Cuden: Interestingly, though, you had already been in a major professional world prior to that. So you understood already how it works on protocols and how people should be treated and all those good things.

Okema T. Moore: Well, that’s why I didn’t mind going from six figures to $10 an hour and going from, you know, doing earnings internationally to asking people if they want more coffee, because I knew that the protocol was, I was a young black woman. I look a lot younger than I am. So at 36, I maybe looked about 25, maybe.

Steve Cuden: And so, yeah, when I saw your picture, I thought you were, like, in your early twenties.

Okema T. Moore: Yeah, no, I’ll be 46 this December.

Steve Cuden: Oh, my goodness.

Okema T. Moore: And so I knew that I had all that on my side, but I also knew that that meant I had to start from the bottom, and I didn’t have an ego about it. It was like, all right, well, if that’s what we gotta do, that’s what we gotta do. But it was great, because I joined niwift as a member. And in my mind, I was just excited that I had done enough to get it. And so they had a talk one day, and maybe about two months before that, I had woke up, like, two, three in the morning, bawling. Like, I left my job. All I’m eating is cereal and tuna. This is terrible. I wanna go back to restaurants. Like, it was bad, right? And I was watching tv, flipping through the channels, and Oprah’s episode of Oprah’s masterclass came on. I had never known about the show, didn’t know anything about her episode or anything, but her episode is probably one of the most impactful ones. And after watching her episode, my tears of woe is me turned into tears of, oh, my God, I can make this happen. I don’t know how, but I can. Two months later, Nywa had a talk, and they were like, the director of Oprah’s masterclass is coming. I was like, oh, my God. I just watched that. I’m gonna go. And this little blonde haired, blue eyed lady walked in, and I was like, well, who’s that? And they were like, the director. I was like, of what? And they were like, oprah’s masterclass. I was like, black Oprah? And they were like, yeah. Because I didn’t. Again, I hadn’t watched the show, so I didn’t know that the masters were everything. They weren’t just black people. And so by the time this lady stopped, talking, I wouldn’t have cared if she was pink with purple polka dots. I was like, I will do anything that you need me to do, because your story is incredible, and I will like. Like the dj’s used to have it. I was like, I will carry your records for free. What do you need? Three months later, I got my first job in television.

Steve Cuden: I think the listeners of this episode should pay special attention to what Akima has been saying for the last couple of minutes. When you start at the bottom of something, you have to be willing to do a lot of things that you might, in your mind’s eye, think, oh, I don’t want to do that. But if you start there, what will happen is you’re going to learn a whole lot about what it is your job will entail. Am I right?

Okema T. Moore: Yeah. But you also learn what to hire when you move up the ladder.

Okema T. Moore: You know what I mean? Like, when Covid hit, I became a Covid officer simply because I knew as a producer I would have to hire these people. And I didn’t know how long this would last. I needed to make sure that people didn’t die on my watch. So I became a Covid officer, not because I wanted to be one, but because I knew I would have to vet this. And it was so important because it literally could be life or death. So I got my certification and I did it. And honestly, being a Covid officer is how I got my first branded directing job, because I was 19th and parks Covid officer, knowing I could do more, watching everybody around me do what I wanted to do. But a, I needed some money, and b, I really wanted to know what this job meant so that I could hire properly later. And then one day we were doing a project for Bet and the director kind of fell out of pocket, and they were like, okay, you direct. Do you want to do this? Hell, yeah. And so that’s how I got my first directing job, for branded content.

Steve Cuden: So you didn’t make a concerted effort to put your reel out or anything like that? It fell in your lap a little bit?

Okema T. Moore: Well, they knew that I had done that, but I also knew that they had no openings for directors at that time. And by then, I had directed some things, but I had never directed a branded campaign, like ten episodes of a lifestyle type branded campaign. And so when the opportunity arose, they were like, have you ever done this before? I was like, well, not this exactly, but I can do this. And so they were like, all right. And then I went and got off the phone and called a friend of mine who, did it all the time. Like, girl, I just walked myself into a job, but I’m not sure if I’m prepared. Can you tell me what I’m supposed to do.

Steve Cuden: To say the least.

Okema T. Moore: Can you tell me if I’m like, I’ve directed short films. I’ve. Is this. What is it? She’s like, it’s not far from that. But then it was Covid, so I’m literally directing on, you know, on like, this. And so, you know, there’s nothing like shipping, you know, Julianna Margolis, a, drop kit, and trying to talk her over the phone how to set it up so you can get voiceover, like, no kidding.

Steve Cuden: So you really had a baptism by fire, didn’t you, baby?

Okema T. Moore: My entire career. My entire career.

Steve Cuden: But you know what? I think that’s the best way to learn.

Okema T. Moore: It’s helped me. It’s helped me stay. I don’t like the word humble because I feel like people use it to belittle people. But I do appreciate the word humility, and baptism by fire will make you function with a lot more humility than hubris.

Steve Cuden: So you have worked in both nonfiction and fiction, as well as all sorts of other things within the industry. Do you have a preference for one over the other?

Okema T. Moore: I will always love acting. I will always be an actor, so I continue to do that. I just got a new agent. I’m super excited. I will always be an actor. I’ve fallen in love with unscripted because there’s something about someone telling what really happened to them and being able to pull that out authentically and making someone feel safe enough to tell you even the stuff that hurts. I connect very much with that, so I don’t know that I have a preference. I think I love all the things I do when I do them, but I am very committed at this time to really push myself into directing more narrative, because I want to actually become an episodic television director.

Steve Cuden: Are you also a writer?

Okema T. Moore: I am. I am a writer. And that also was something by necessity. You know, when. When I first came up in this game, there were no dslrs, there were no camera phones, and so you had to, like, hope you knew somebody that was in Film school that could get a camera right? And as an actress, I just got tired of playing baby mama number four and around the way girl number seven. So it was like, well, I’m a journalist. I’m a writer. Maybe I can write something. But I was like, I don’t have no money. So how much it. Because I can’t afford cameras and Film and all that stuff. And so I started writing again out of necessity. I always wrote, like, poems and short stories and songs. And I was like, well, those same ideas work in television and Film. You just have to learn the, format. And so, for me, I will buy all the books, I will go to all the workshops, I will do all the things. I will talk to people. I will have people read it and redline me to death. All the things, like, if I want to do something, I’m going to do all the things that probably will bruise, if nothing, scar my ego for a little bit so I can get better, so that I don’t have to go through that again.

Steve Cuden: You’re doing exactly what you’re supposed to do to learn what you ultimately want to achieve. You clearly have done that all your life. You must have done something like that to get into the market. The business of finance, for a while. You must have also studied that really hard.

Okema T. Moore: Oh, yeah. No, I. Funny enough, I went and took the test for my six and my 63. I didn’t pass the test at first for my seven, but I also realized that I was still, like, auditioning and performing nights, weekends, holidays, da da da. and I knew that if I became a full fledged investment banker, I could never do what I was doing. So what I did was I got my licenses that I could, and then I became an assistant. So I still got credits and certain kickbacks for whatever I sold. But I was not a full fledged banker because I was coming in at 530 in the morning to do, like, turkey and UK things. Have my day by 05:30 p.m. i remember one year, I was in a Musical. Literally, I would leave the office at 05:30 p.m. get to the Richmond Shepherd Theater, tiny little Theater on, like, 23rd Street, by six, be in hair and makeup and on stage as the lead, like, nine solos. It was bananas. and I did that for, like, four months. Not a dime. Did not get paid for that show. Not one dime. But that’s how I wound up working with the woman who would then, years later, have me headlining at the August Wilson again.

Steve Cuden: The smart way to play it. In this business that we’re in, sometimes you have to give it away in order to get the gig down the road.

Okema T. Moore: Yep.

Steve Cuden: You can’t always make money in the beginning of the career. Now, later in your career, you can’t do it for free unless it’s charity.

Okema T. Moore: No, no, no. yeah. Like, philanthropy is big for me, and so, because I didn’t have a lot of me’s coming up, and the ones that I had, I really cherished. So I always wanted to be that for someone else, because, like, that woman that I talked about, that was the director of Oprah’s masterclass. To this day. Her name is Annette Marion. She actually was the producer for the Michael Jay. Fox documentary, recently. She’s amazing.

Steve Cuden: Oh, really?

Okema T. Moore: But she is, to this day, one of my sister friends, still a mentor and sponsor for me in this business. She wrote my PGA recommendation. She writes my recommendations for anything I applied to. Like, she is literally a staunch resource and supporter for me, but that was because I was willing to work for her, for pennies on the top when I first worked for her. But I did that figure. I was. I think I was making a, whopping 637 $6 a week. Wow.

Steve Cuden: M don’t spend all that in one place, baby.

Okema T. Moore: Listen. And then fast forward. That was in 2017. Fast forward to 2020. And I was making more than that per day on Oprah’s doc, on Covid as a field producer and director. So, like, that’s the other thing. You may take it and give it away in the beginning, but it’s not like corporate America, where it’s going to take you ten years to rise the ranks. If you show up and show out and learn things and are pleasant to be around and, like, really set yourself up, it won’t take long to really fly by where you are.

Steve Cuden: I agree. In the business that we’re talking about in making documentaries and making narrative films, if you can get people who are eager to make their bones and you can get them on board for a limited amount of money, you can save yourself some money as a producer. But also, you are helping someone to learn the trade. And though you’re being taken advantage of, and then they’re taking advantage of you, etcetera.

Okema T. Moore: It’s cyclical.

Steve Cuden: It is cyclical, but that’s how it’s happened for a very long time. And I don’t necessarily advocate that we have people working for nothing, but yet that’s where the proving ground is frequently.

Okema T. Moore: And I mean, to be honest, post strikes, the wages have dropped 20% to 25%. So we’re back at a lot of those. Not nothing, but not super something great indeed.

Steve Cuden: So I want to chat for a moment about things that you have actually done. For instance, how did you get on the kitchen or on the Bobby Flay show? How’d that happen?

Okema T. Moore: So, anybody who knows me knows I will watch Food network for hours. like, I chop.

Steve Cuden: Are you a good cook?

Okema T. Moore: I am now working with all of these amazing chefs. I say it all the time. I am an unofficial graduate of the Food Network school of Culinary Arts. My first culinary show was chopped. I got on Chopped because I was in a show on Brick TV called brooklynification written by Chris Poindexter. it did really, really well. And the producer for that happened to do that as, like, a side piece because it was a narrative like series. It was like a web series that Brick TV had done back in 2016. And so I got on that show, and that producer was like, hey, I know you produced. I’m looking for an associate producer or, like, a swing producer for Chopped. Would you be interested? I was like, oh, my God, I love chopped. I watch chopped all the time. Oh, my God, I would absolutely do it. And she was like, now you’re not going to be in the studio most times. We’ll have you produce the special episode. So, like, we had one episode where, like, it was grandma’s. All the grandmas got drunk. baby was a mess. We had to push up lunch because, one, grandma was a little tipsy because she wasn’t a drinker. But adult peer pressure is a bee. And so working on chopped is how I wound up. I was the, like, swing coordinator for chopped, and then I got to produce the special episode. So, like, the kids, this was before chopped junior was a thing. So, like, the kids, the grandmas, they would take me in and let me work with those contestants because, again, like, I’m just good with people, I guess. And so from chopped, there was a ep at, chopped, who then was working with someone at Bobby Flay. Beat Bobby Flay. And I was like, oh, my God, I love Bobby Flay. Yes, I’ll do that. And so I wound up going over and becoming a segment producer for Beat Bobby Flay. And again, that person, a few years later, I was looking for a gig. I was between gigs, and she was like, you know, I know somebody at the kitchen. And I was like, I love the kitchen. I’ll go over to the kitchen. But the kitchen was real. Like, chopped was busy but not hard. Beat Bobby Flay was very challenging because I had never been in, m. I had never been a part of the producing side of the competition stuff. But the kitchen was where I felt like a true television producer because I wrote everything for, I mean, on Bebobby Flay, I wrote all of Bobby’s stuff and the judges stuff for my episodes as well. But on the kitchen, we, like, we’re training recipes. We’re working with, you know, these five huge chef personalities, three of which are iron chefs. And so it was a much bigger. There was a lot at stake, and it wasn’t a competition. So we were running a talk show that just happened to be cooking, right? So I’m like, they’re listening to me on the floor. I got a little headset. I’m like, okay, we’re getting ready to come in. I need you to do your intro. Let’s run over. And so that was probably the first time. That was 2021, I think that was the first time in, like, culinary. I was like, holy crap. I’m like, a real tv producer. Oh, my gosh.

Steve Cuden: Still in the middle of the pandemic, no less.

Okema T. Moore: Yeah, we had just. That was when we just had opened up, when they had just given concessions for tv to come back, and we were making food television. So, like, we were heavily quarantined, heavily masked, always, like, literally tested every day.

Steve Cuden: That must have been very challenging to do.

Okema T. Moore: It was a lot. It was intense, but it was so worth it because I learned so much. Plus, it’s five hosts.

Steve Cuden: Five, hosts.

Okema T. Moore: It’s five hosts with very high profiles.

Steve Cuden: And things and unique personalities.

Okema T. Moore: Yes. That is a great way to put that. And then add to that it’s six segments. But again, whenever I’m working on a show, if I’m up here, wherever I am, whoever’s with me, that’s right underneath me, I want to bring them with me. And so I had an amazing associate producer. Well, she was a pA, but, pas, in that sense, are not, like, gopher pas on set. Like, she’s a pa. So, like, she’s making sure, like, we have all of our ingredients, but she’s also. I knew she was really smart. She had been there much longer than I had a. And she wanted to move up. So I would give her her own segment to write herself. I would check it or whatever, but I’d give her her own segment to write. And then my associate producer, I gave her two segments, and then I did my three myself. So I, of course, had to over check them, whatever, but I wanted them to get some autonomy for the work.

Steve Cuden: So did you have to do a lot of research to work on that show?

Okema T. Moore: So there was enough research that had to be done, because if we were, say we did one, episode was like father’s, day, and so there’s no research for Father’s day. But, you know, Jeffrey wanted, you know, crab over steak. I didn’t know what the hell a crab a poiv was, so I looked that up. Right.

Steve Cuden: I don’t know what it is either.

Okema T. Moore: All it is is, like, creamy crab on top of a steak chow.

Steve Cuden: But okay.

Okema T. Moore: And I don’t even eat steak, but it looked really good. But, like, we had to, like, find segments to do. So, like, I loved that part of the job because I had a girlfriend who had just started, like, printing press business. So I had her make. We wanted to give the guys Father’s day gift, so I had her make them really cool aprons. One said, quiche. The chef for. For Jeffrey, because, you know, he’s a little bougie. And one was like, something about sandwiches for Jeff Morrow because he’s a sandwich guy. And so I had her make them. So her company got to have its product on national television. My ap got Covid when we were getting ready to go shoot, so she had to. She couldn’t work. So my pa became the AP. So when we were done, I was like, listen, she aP’d this. I don’t know if we can give her that credit now, but if not, next season. She’s been kicking ass all season. She needs to be an AP. Well, the next season, she got promoted to AP, and I just wrote her a recommendation recently, and now she is an AP over at the Kelly Clarksman show. I mean, by, like, people have lifted me up, so I try to make sure it’s the same thing. And the same thing happened on down in the valley. I had a padded. Who just showed up and showed out. Her research was stellar, and by episode five, she had been bumped up to ap.

Steve Cuden: So on a show like the kitchen, is it scripted in any way, or you just set the segments up so.

Okema T. Moore: It’S scripted, but, of course, we have very headstrong, people, and they’ve been doing this for quite some time. So we give them a script, but they make it their own.

Steve Cuden: Right.

Okema T. Moore: But it is scripted. It is scripted in terms of, like, talking points.

Steve Cuden: They’re not memorizing lines like in a drama.

Okema T. Moore: No, they know the talking points. It’s kind of like a wedding, right? Who’s seating in what seat? So, like, if Alex is the key host for a segment, I’ll give her a sous chef, and maybe that’s Katie. And then, if it’s something I know sunny really likes, we’ll make her the first seat so she’ll be the immediate taster, and then she’ll share with the rest of them. And so we literally move their seats around like that.

Steve Cuden: You had to actually contrive that to make the show work. Is there, an emphasis? Most great stories that attract audiences are filled with some form of conflict. Doesn’t necessarily mean people are yelling at each other, but it means that there’s tension. And, so did you contrive how you put people together in order to make it conflict filled?

Okema T. Moore: What’s interesting is we did it for the very opposite reason. In culinary. Most of the food network shows immediate demographic is middle american, white, middle aged women. They like happy when it comes to their food shows. So we literally, consistently make sure that we do it so that it’s things people love, things they like to eat so that they’re always happy or at least chatty about it, because they also, like talk. Ah, m so it’s the complete opposite of what unscripted is for, like, a reality show where you know that Marla don’t like candy, and so you put Marla and candy together because you know it’s gonna be so internal joke. We call our demographic. We named her Connie.

Steve Cuden: Connie.

Okema T. Moore: Connie likes happy and chatty. And so we give Connie happy and chatty every time.

Steve Cuden: Happy and chatty. No conflict.

Okema T. Moore: No. Or if it’s conflict, it’s more teasing. It’s not conflict. So, like, they always tease Jeffrey about being very stush. Very posh. Very. So, like, anytime there’s something.

Steve Cuden: Did you say the word stush?

Okema T. Moore: Yeah. I’m, Caribbean. Yes.

Steve Cuden: Well, I’ve never heard that word before.

Okema T. Moore: Bougie.

Steve Cuden: Okay.

Okema T. Moore: Whereas Sunny is, like, your down home, around the way girl. She’s gonna use frozen things. Cause it’s quicker. So we’ll always make sure that, like, they have opposing m things. Cause then, like, Jeffrey, be like, you put that in there. She’s like, taste it. He’s like, okay, you’re right.

Steve Cuden: I’m gonna be blowing my friends minds because I’m gonna be using the word stush now, and they’re not gonna know what I’m talking about.

Okema T. Moore: Or go around a caribbean person and say stush, and you will fully impress them.

Steve Cuden: So on a show like that, are you intentionally crafting the show so that it goes through a. Ah, basically a seven plot point set?

Okema T. Moore: It’s six for our show. But, yes, we’re crafting it so that it literally moves through our, intro, the first segment, whatever that dish is or whatever that focus is. Do we have a guest? Is there, you know, a collaboration with, like, king’s hawaiian or some kind of liquor or whatever? Is it a holiday segment? They are phenomenal cooks, but, like, we never give them too much decorating baked goods to do. That’s not their thing. And so we’ll let them start, and then we swap out for the really pretty ones that culinary. You know what I mean? So you set it up so that you get your dishes, your dishes, your dishes, your dessert.

Steve Cuden: You can’t have it, look like a big, messy kitchen. It’s got to have some niceness to it.

Okema T. Moore: The set is gorgeous. It looks like a really, really beautiful. It’s not too high end in that people, your standard demographic doesn’t feel like it could be their kitchen, but it’s their kitchen of their dreams, not, you know what I mean? And so we set it up so that it feels like they’re moving through a, kitchen through the day. It feels like they’re all kind of doing a dance, moving around the kitchen through the day, giving you great combo, great food, great laughs, maybe a little teasing, maybe a surprise or two.

Steve Cuden: How frequently do you do a segment and things, something went wrong or didn’t work and you have to start over again?

Okema T. Moore: Well, we’ve had that happen. But you know what? We do rehearse. The good thing is they also record the script in Vo as well.

Steve Cuden: Right?

Okema T. Moore: Because, you know, we use the Vo to toss to commercial, come back from commercial, blah, blah, blah. So the good thing is a. It’s not live, thankfully. So, we do have the chance to start again. And then sometimes it just gets to a place where it’s like, okay, you know, we find out in rehearsal when something works, when it doesn’t, and if it doesn’t, then we go in the back and we jig it a little bit, and we make sure that it does. If it doesn’t work, it never gets to actual set.

Steve Cuden: So you actually are able to change things. It’s not a reality show in the sense that you can’t, cut away or you. You’re stuck with the footage you get. You can actually redo that.

Okema T. Moore: Yeah. And, I mean, remember, it is a culinary show, but it is also only an hour show. So with that, I can’t make crab au Paavre the whole time. So, like, we’ll start it, and then there’s a finished one that we show. And so it’s still very, very organized, very intentional. But their commentary and interaction is what is unique and what is authentic.

Steve Cuden: I’m going to be telling everybody I know that krabbeau poiva is stush, and I’m going to be the hit of the day.

Okema T. Moore: Baby, listen, you about to make the parties mad.

Steve Cuden: So tell me what the difference is between doing those kinds of shows and color of care.

Okema T. Moore: Well, color of care was heavy because we shot that August 2020, I caught Covid making the COVID dock.

Steve Cuden: Oh, wow.

Okema T. Moore: And that was og Covid. And I’m asthmatic. So I was down for, like, six months.

Steve Cuden: And there was no kind of vaccine or anything else then.

Okema T. Moore: There was no vaccine yet. No. So I lost out on, thousands of dollars because I couldn’t go on the road because I was down. But something like color of care, you know, Yancey Ford is brilliant at what he does, and he has oscars and nominations to prove that. And so getting to work under him and learn under him, but also being unleashed on my own with a team because it was Covid. So he had to go shoot the northeast while I went down and shot the south. So I literally directed all my shoots myself. I had a team. Thank God his partner was with me. So, like, we. But it’s very different in that with that, the subject was heavy. I was mourning the loss of two of my uncles that had just passed from COVID Not long before that. Everybody was dying left and right in the world. And so we didn’t know what was going on. It was only August. We were still all very scared. So it was just a lot heavier to work through. But it also kept us all so close and so caring with each other, with the subjects. Like, for me having to direct that, it was about people. It’s about the healthcare disparities in black communities during the COVID crisis. And so I’m talking to people about their lost one. So there’s a certain level of fragility in your subject that you have to be able to balance and you have to be able to, care for but still get what you need. And then I’m talking to experts, and some believe in what’s happening, and some did not. And so it’s having to understand that, just, like, as an actor, I can’t judge my character. I can’t judge this person’s stance, but I can challenge it, you know, to make sure that I get a full breadth of their stance versus what is popular stance or vice versa. So it’s much more cerebral with, like, a color of care or even down in the valley. I mean, with down in the valley, a lot of the people we were portraying are people that society often dehumanizes, whether they’re strippers, sex workers, or just poor and black. And so it’s taking the dehumanization of this person, digging into their story not judging them, but giving them a chance to feel uplifted. And humane and seen, you know what I mean? One woman, yeah, she’s a stripper. But her husband, who was the father of all three of her children, because, you know, immediately, it’s like, three kids. Oh, how many baby daddies? No, it was one. It was her husband. Her high school sweetheart died in a car accident on father’s day coming home. Oh. And so she was awful. He was the breadwinner. She was a stay at home mom. So now she’s got to figure out how to take care of her and three little kids without a husband. So being that she was a beautiful girl with a really nice body, the easiest way for her to do that and also be home in the daytime for and with her children was for her to dance.

Steve Cuden: The difference is really dramatic because you go from a sort of lighthearted kitchen show to this really heavy subject matter.

Okema T. Moore: Yeah. But you have to. I know for me, I’m very empathic when it comes to energy and things like that. So I had to. I would go back to my room. Like, I wouldn’t hang out, really. I’d have dinner with everybody, but then I’d go back to my room and, like, light a candle, take a shower, Pray, journal, just get that out so that I’m not taking all that to the next day, because the next day we could be, like, in the park with a mom and her kids.

Steve Cuden: And what would happen to you if you didn’t do those things?

Okema T. Moore: I know myself well enough to know that I carry other people’s bags, even if they’re not mine. And so if I don’t release before I have to be in the space again, then I have the misfortune of not serving my talent the way that I should.

Steve Cuden: So. And I don’t mean to pry, but I’m just curious for the listeners to understand. Does it, affect the way that you function? Are you unable to be effective?

Okema T. Moore: Well, because then you kind of. Because after a while, if you take all that trauma on without releasing it in some way, shape, or form, you kind of glaze over. And so now I’m not as present for my subjects the next day. And what if, you know, everything we shot wasn’t trauma? I don’t do trauma quorum. Right. So everything wasn’t traumatic. You know, there were a big part of, like, with. Down in the valley, was finding the joy black people are. I mean, people, period. But as I’m black, I can only really reference black people. Right? So we are the people that are going to be at a funeral and cry. But also laugh because the same person that we are crying over used to make us laugh by asking everybody for a dollar or, like, you know, whatever. So we find the joy even in the pain, and most people do. That’s why the best comedies have some level of tragedy and vice versa.

Steve Cuden: Well, the old definition is comedy is tragedy plus time, right?

Okema T. Moore: And so I see grief as, love with nowhere to go. And so, for me, if I’m holding this grief, I need to love on me so that I’ve now taken this grief with nowhere to go that’s in the ether and giving it back to myself so that I can reset and now be present for whatever I’m going to encounter the next day with that subject or a new subject.

Steve Cuden: Do you feel like as you’re producing, you are also then being a director? And I’m not talking about narrative fiction. I’m talking about the real stuff. You’re also directing those shoots as a producer.

Okema T. Moore: So that’s the running joke in unscripted is that field producers are the most uncredited directors ever. Because, you know, I also worked on BEt’s clutch academy, which was about Rich Paul’s company, Clutch sports.

Steve Cuden: Sure.

Okema T. Moore: And so that was that year. He had, like, five rookies that were NBA hopefuls.

Steve Cuden: For those who don’t know who Rich Paul is, he’s, as famously attached to Adele as anything else.

Okema T. Moore: Well, but he is also LeBron James agent.

Steve Cuden: Well, that’s it exactly.

Okema T. Moore: Before he was Adele’s anything, that was.

Steve Cuden: His big move was to land LeBron.

Okema T. Moore: Well, and they. And everybody told LeBron he was crazy because Rich had never been an agent before. And now, look, Rich runs one of the most successful, one of the largest, you know, sports agencies in the business. But we were doing clutch academy with Rich Paul’s guys. And, you know, we were. We had, you know, they. One of his boys unfortunately passed during production. It wasn’t on us. There was just. He was. It was a car accident, and the young man passed away, and there was another rookie he had that was kind of like the 6th guy, but this was about five guys. So the number six got moved up, but they hadn’t really had anything with him. And they were like, hey, we need you to go to Minnesota. Minneapolis. I always think about Prince.

Steve Cuden: That’s where he was.

Okema T. Moore: Yes. And so they were like, we need you to go here. And he won’t be there till Wednesday. The draft is Thursday. But I need you to go Monday, meet his parents, form a story. Also, he’s quiet, doesn’t like to talk to people. And he’s very reserved. And I was like, wait, what? Mind you, I don’t even follow basketball. So I’m like, they must really trust my producing skills. Cause I don’t even know basketball, okay? And it wound up being that I was following Jericho Sims, who wound up getting drafted to the New York Knicks and is in his third season. His mom still calls and checks on me. I still text him, and I used to call him quiet storm. And I still text him. And every now and again, hey, quiet storm, I see you. I’m proud. But, you know, I was out there, left to my own devices. And so I knew it was my first job for bet proper, the actual channel. It was the first project out of BET Studios by Kenya Barris. I’d never worked for Rich Paul before. I’ve never met any of these people, but I worked for them, and my name is on it, so I gotta show up. And so, you know, as a director, I had to prepare myself as a director, though. I’m the field producer. Field producing is directing. You just don’t get director credit.

Steve Cuden: That is really, important for the listeners to understand that in the types of shows we’re talking about, there is no quote unquote, director on a show. The field producers depends on the show.

Okema T. Moore: Well, no, we had directors on down in the valley.

Steve Cuden: Got it.

Okema T. Moore: So it really does depend on the show. The production company, how they’ve structured that.

Steve Cuden: Show, is that a financial thing? Is that they’re saving money?

Okema T. Moore: I definitely believe some of it is financial, but I also believe that it depends on, like, Clash academy was an ensemble. There were five different guys that we had to follow at different times in different places. So if you had five directors, that would be really messy, because that’s five visions. Whereas if you have five producers with a set of directives and they’re all kind of working under this formula, it’s not. You still can kind of rein that in.

Steve Cuden: Just in case anybody’s wondering, as we’re going along here, we can hear some kind of mister softy truck or something outside Brooklyn.

Okema T. Moore: I live in Bed Stuy.

Steve Cuden: This is what we do. I, Just in case anybody wondered what’s going on. That’s what you’re hearing.

Okema T. Moore: Mister Softy.

Steve Cuden: Mister Softy. Oh, my goodness. That would be good right now, wouldn’t it?

Okema T. Moore: I know.

Steve Cuden: What do you do to keep your Act together in the middle of all the chaos of production? Do you use any kind of apps, or do you have paperwork? What do you do to keep yourself in one place?

Okema T. Moore: so when I’m in the field, I actually use this application called field notes. Field notes app is amazing because for me, I always ensure that my cameramen set the camera to time of day. And if they set the camera to time of day, then when I’m taking my notes in the field notes app, it’s also by time of day. So when I’m reading everything back and going through the footage, I can make the notes or the hot sheets. If you don’t know what a hot sheet is, when you’re doing doc or unscripted at the end of every night, you have to turn in what happened that day. I’m always made fun of because my hot sheets read like a novel, but that is because I’m trying to sell to the network what I picked up and make them excited about it. So I write my hot sheets like I’m writing a blog, and I make it very juicy. And I use a lot of really colorful visual words and all the things. Some people just write what happened, I write how it made me feel. But, you know, I do my, I do everything like that. So that when I’m going and scrubbing the footage, because a lot of times what I do is also story produce the things I field produce because I’m also a story producer, so they wind up getting a two in one with me. So when I’m looking for things, if it’s by time of day, when I’m watching down the raw footage, I can find things quicker. So the field notes app, plus with field notes app, it, you can drop it directly into your Google sheets or Google Doc from the app. So that’s something I use to keep myself organized. I also use either Asana or Monday with the team, so we can make sure, like, everybody’s got their marching orders. Oh, you completed this. Okay, I know you completed this. We also work out of, like, Google Docs and Google sheets because they keep version history, which is really important, and it’s a breathing thing. So if someone changes it changes something, they can leave a comment, they can highlight it, you can see it as it’s being changed in real time if you happen to be in it together. Those are all tools that really, really help me keep organized and keep us kind of moving.

Steve Cuden: Do you issue call sheets every day?

Okema T. Moore: So I don’t do call sheets anymore because Jesus loves me, but because call sheets, listen, little black baby Jesus used to be on my side for those, but, call sheets are issued every day. They’re usually out a day or two before the day, therefore, so that everybody can know what’s needed. But that’s also the call sheet helps me with my hot sheet at night, because now I have everybody’s name that was on set, everybody that was on camera. All of that, plus my field app notes, help me do a full call sheet and production report for the day so that when we’re going back, you know, like, say it’s in post, and the AE, the assistant editor AE, is going through and trying to do what we call a Facebook, which is just basically logging everyone that we’ve gotten in the frame so that we have a waiver for them and we don’t get sued, or have to use our Arizona emissions insurance ever in my log. You’ll see. Oh, such and such was at this place or that place. This is the name. Now, you can put that name to that face in that spreadsheet, and everything is in, order.

Steve Cuden: Okay, so now you’ve got yourself in order. Are you a planner in advance? Do you envision scenes? Do you do some form of. Some kind of storyboarding, or do you work with the DP to set up a shot list, or how do you do it?

Okema T. Moore: I absolutely don’t do anything without a shot list. Now, what you have to realize is you’re rigid in your planning and flexible in your execution.

Steve Cuden: Say that again. It was a super important line.

Okema T. Moore: I am rigid in my planning, but I am uber flexible in my execution.

Steve Cuden: You plan to be able to punt?

Okema T. Moore: Yes. I don’t play ball, so I would never have said punt, but, yes, that is exactly it. M. And so, yes, there’s always a treatment for a story. so, like this week, my episode of down in the valley airs, on Friday, the 19. And so we are doing. It’s called from the juke to the john. And so we’re doing music, people. And so when I knew we were doing juicy fruit, she’s the person, the artist that made the down in the valley theme song for Pea Valley, which everybody loves. It blew up all of that. We know she’s from Memphis, and Juicy is definitely an around the way girl, so we knew we wanted her in, like, a local spot, so we put her in a place called genre. It’s literally right across from the prison. It’s usually where prisoners go for their first drink out the joint. It’s a lively place, but we knew her energy, not for the prison aspect, but the lively energy of it. She’s a big energy herself, so we knew we wanted her in some place local like that. So I did a ten day scout before we ever touched the production side of things so that we can meet people, create stories, figure out scenes, figure out places. It never failed. One time we were going to shoot, a story about girls, the dancers. We lost all of the dancers and the club the two days before we were supposed to go down and shoot.

Steve Cuden: Oh, wow.

Okema T. Moore: But I had done a ten day thorough scout through three different states. So when we lost the dancers that we were going to shoot in one state, I had a club willing to give us the space very much open to being, you know, put on television, especially as a exotic club. Being related to anything P Valley in that region is huge. So they understood that this was beneficial for them. They didn’t charge us a whole lot. They had really awesome girls, some of whom I had used as background dancers for when we shot juicy.

Steve Cuden: Oh.

Okema T. Moore: So I knew girls that had stories. So it’s like you have to do all your planning, because you never know. When you swear you’ve got a scene, you’re gonna get it. It’s gonna be great. And then the network calls and is like, you know what? We thought about it. We don’t really like this. But I shoot tomorrow. I know, but we don’t like it. What else can you get? But I shoot tomorrow. So if you don’t plan properly, you know? But I also make the joke all the time. But I’m very serious. I am the same girl who made a horse show without a horse.

Steve Cuden: You mean a horse show without a horse.

Okema T. Moore: I was producing and directing DIY content for Netflix and Dreamworks. They have an animated show called, spirit riding free.

Steve Cuden: Okay.

Okema T. Moore: And so our show was called that’s the spirit. So we had four little equestrian girls who would, like, train and jump and do all the things. And we had gone to, like, the big thing in Cheyenne, and we had our girls with us. and there was, like, you might as well call it horse Covid. It was before COVID happened, but it was this big horse outbreak, virus. And so nobody would bring us their horse to shoot with for feet because it was very contagious. But I had to go home and tell dreamworks I had a show. So I took my littlest girl. We were on a farm. They had one horse that was natural to that farm, but he was old and kind of crotchety, so they didn’t trust him to use, like, as a main horse. But he was beautiful and big. So we trotted her around a little ring on him. Cool. There was this big stump and I said, is that stump attached to something? They were like, well, no, it moves. It’s just so big. I was like, great. I need three guys. I had them turn the stump on its belly. I put the saddle on the stump, and I said, we gonna say, this is how you practice getting on a saddle. And then we’ll just watch her trot. We’ll shoot her trotting and be like, and this is what happens when you do it. All right, great. We had no horse. We had a horse show. Okay? So once you can figure that out, you can figure out anything.

Steve Cuden: That was very creative.

Okema T. Moore: I was just very scared. Well, so I did what I could do to make sure I couldn’t tell these people that I didn’t have a show to give them.

Steve Cuden: What’s the old saw? You know, necessity is the mother of invention. So you’re forced into it, you know, you gotta figure something out.

Okema T. Moore: I just knew that I was new on the team. They flew me to Colorado, and I had to go home with something.

Steve Cuden: That’s an awesome story. Now, do you do the same sorts of things when you are working on a truly scripted narrative fiction shoot?

Okema T. Moore: You’re just this creative. Yeah, I remember we were shooting. I was shooting one of my first. It was my first film, and I knew nothing. It was like 2012, 2013, and we were shooting in this studio that we could afford. It was old, it was cold outside, and the pipes are knocking. But we’re shooting a monologue in the studio. And I was like, what am I going to do? And I was like, you know what? It’s fine. Shoot it. And they were like, what do you mean, the audio. I was like, just shoot it. So we shot it because she was telling a pretty kind of ominous story. I said, okay, great, shoot it. So we shot it. I said, get some wild sound of the knocking. And so when we were in post, I said, you know, try to isolate it as much as you can. Turn her up. Don’t distort her, but turn her up. I said, now add the knocking all over and then add some. Cause she was talking about how she was, like, talking to herself. I was like, okay, go in the booth and whisper and just say really derogatory things. And those are her evil thoughts, and the knocking is her heartbeat and. Okay, great. We got a scene.

Steve Cuden: Wow, good on you. That was. That’s really clever.

Okema T. Moore: Maybe because I had horrible sound and I needed to make it.

Steve Cuden: Okay, well, you know, I think what you’re saying is probably true on so many productions. You’re always working against the elements. Everything is working against you. Time, the light, the time of day, people’s attitudes, all the things that are working against you that you have to work your way through. So you have to be the solution of all these things. And I think that if you aren’t able to do that, then perhaps that’s not the right job for you.

Okema T. Moore: Then you need to figure out what your space is, because if you can’t. A, producer is a problem solver. A director is a problem solver. A pa is a problem solver.

Okema T. Moore: You know what I mean? And different problems, different levels of problem, different solutions. But you have to be able to do that. And like, for me, my end goal is show running, inscripted and unscripted, which is why I’m working to become a better writer. Because in scripted to showrun, you usually have to write.

Steve Cuden: Exactly.

Okema T. Moore: But in unscripted, I’ve gotten to a place where now I’m looking and assuming co EP or EP roles because I’ve done so much stuff. But again, I have to learn how to problem solve without blame, but still have boundaries. Lead with love, but still let people know I will fire you. Like, it’s all these things. So my solution, my problem solving in my. In my, you know, lower level spaces are how I feel like I lend to being a better leader because I’ve solved big problems, I’ve solved little problems. And I also, like I said, I really don’t have an ego. I remember we were shooting this scripted piece, for Byron Allen’s company called up north. We were shooting. It was in the projects. we were outside, it was cold, and we needed to shoot in a jail. And so in New York, if you shoot in a prison, it’s usually in Queen’s detention, because it’s the only working prison that also still has, like, empty cell blocks. They showed us the bathroom, and I guess it was the bathroom that the guards and stuff used. I wouldn’t let someone, I hate use that restroom. It was so ridiculous. And this is pre Covid, so I can only imagine what Covid was probably born in that bathroom. And so I knew as that was the associate producer then, but I was doing all the producer work because the producers were brand new and they had never done anything. And so. Right. And I was like, okay, cool. I said I had the pa. Now, I knew I could have gotten a pa to do it, but I knew if I wanted the pas and everyone else to work really hard, I would have to do it. So I had them go give me those long gloves, some soap, some bleach, some toilet scrubs. And there was an open cell block we weren’t using, and I was like, all right, we going to use the Buddy system? And so I scrubbed, several of the toilets in that cell block, put in air fresheners, some toilet paper, some napkins, soap, some lotion. A little, you know, made it decent. It was like, y’all go two at a time. Somebody stand at the top of the block because there’s no doors. So you go and, use the last one that I cleaned. Go for it. Whatever. Anything I needed from that day till we wrapped, I got, because I was willing to scrub toilets in jail.

Steve Cuden: That’s amazing.

Okema T. Moore: So it’s like, once you decide, I have no ego on this thing, but I have humility versus hubris. I have integrity. I care about everyone from the pa to the showrunner, then people will usually help you help them, and then the people that don’t, you still have to kind of deal with it. I’ve dealt with plenty of attitudes and ugly folks, and, you know, and all I could do is just suck it up. If it was someone that was my subordinate, pull them to the side. Hey, so what’s happening? and if it was someone that I was subordinate to, I had to just, you know, reconcile with myself that they’re in charge. And so I need to figure out how to balance this enough so that I am not resentful. I don’t give that energy, but also, I don’t get run over.

Steve Cuden: What you’re talking about is, I think, the essence of leadership.

Okema T. Moore: Well, because soft skills are hard.

Steve Cuden: They certainly are.

Okema T. Moore: Soft skills are hard, and they’re not often talked about, nor are they usually taught. I actually am working on putting a workshop together, literally, for set etiquette business.

Steve Cuden: Ah.

Okema T. Moore: You know, industry etiquette and soft skills. There’s not enough of that going on.

Steve Cuden: You should write a book, and when you do, you’ll come back on and we’ll talk about that.

Okema T. Moore: That is. That is not a bad idea.

Steve Cuden: What’s the most fulfilling thing about being a producer and director?

Okema T. Moore: Watching a thought then becomes something I can watch on television.

Steve Cuden: That’s so cool.

Okema T. Moore: Like, I remember I got hired to develop down in the valley with Niko, January 2023. And so I can remember when all of this was just words going into a pretty deck. And tomorrow I get to watch the episode on television that I literally bled, sweat, and cried over. And so that’s. That’s what’s amazing about what I do is that I can watch a thought, mine or someone else’s become an actual thing.

Steve Cuden: Well, I’ve had the great privilege of seeing the same thing happen where something goes from a thought to a worldwide phenomenon. So I get it. And there is nothing like it.

Okema T. Moore: Listen, I auditioned for Jekyll and Hyde a few times, so. I see.

Steve Cuden: I get it. Well, that’s been a big, great fortunate thing for me, but we’re not here to talk about Jekyll and Hyde or me. And I have been having the most really powerful and marvelous conversation for an hour now with Okema T. Moore. And I’ve just really been enjoying this thoroughly. But we’re going to wind the show down a little bit right now, and I’m wondering, in all of your experiences, can you share with us a story that’s either weird, quirky, offbeat, strange, or just plain funny beyond the amazing ones you’ve already told us?

Okema T. Moore: Yes. Let’s go with funny.

Steve Cuden: Funny is money.

Okema T. Moore: Yes. It was on down in the valley. We, were shooting someone. His name is. He’s in the next episode. That’s coming. Episode five. No, he’s in episode four. Mister. His name is Jimi.

Steve Cuden: Jimi.

Okema T. Moore: Jimi Duck Holmes.

Steve Cuden: Okay.

Okema T. Moore: He, first of all, the name alone, right? He runs the oldest still standing, functioning juke joint in the delta, okay? It’s called the Blue Cafe. And the blue is an interesting place, but Mister Jimi makes it even more interesting. So we. We were doing a scout with Mister Jimi, and he’s like, so tell me, little girl, how’d you get this big job? And I was like, mister Jimi, do you know how old I am? And he was like, I’m 75. So you a little girl to me. I was like, well, you right? And he goes, it doesn’t matter to me how old you are, but you a little thing. How you get this big job? I said, mister Jimi, you an old man. How you still walking around? He said, I ain’t old. I ain’t. Oh, have you listened to my songs?

Okema T. Moore: Do you hear what I say? Do you hear the things I sing about? I am not old. I am seasoned. I said, like some good chicken? He was like, yes, like some good chicken. You know they making chicken out front. I was like, I’m done. I said, yes, mister Jimi, you are seasoned like the chicken they make outside of the blue cafe. The blue front cafe? Yes, Mister Jimi. Absolutely. He was like, as long as you know. I know, Mister Jimi. I do. And when you watch the show, you will get to experience all of Mister Jimi in his wonderful fineness in his glory. But he’s also a Grammy winning Bentonia bluesman.

Steve Cuden: Really?

Okema T. Moore: And he does a pic, and you can. I don’t even think he has fingerprints anymore. But, the way that man can play a guitar is insane. He does not use a pick. It’s Bentonia blues style, and it’s phenomenal. But the lyrics, honey, the lyrics. The lyrics. Mister Jimi got better bars than half these rappers.

Steve Cuden: Okay, so he writes his own work as well?

Okema T. Moore: Absolutely. But if you ask him everything that he’s written, he’s either lived or seen.

Steve Cuden: Wow. That must be one heck of a Life.

Okema T. Moore: Oh, yeah. Well, also, I just honor him so much because the blue front is attached to his concert hall, which is the cotton gin he used to pick cotton and sell to.

Steve Cuden: Oh, my goodness. That’s something.

Okema T. Moore: So he owns that entire piece of land.

Steve Cuden: You gonna write his, biography, make his StoryBeat?

Okema T. Moore: I am not writing Mister Jimmy’s biography, but I do have a good time, and I do plan to go back and visit Bentonia with the population of 700 something people.

Steve Cuden: Yeah, that sounds like a movie to me.

Okema T. Moore: I mean, it could be. It could be. But Mister Jimi drives a hard bargain. I don’t know that can afford Mister Jimmy’s, life rights.

Steve Cuden: Well, you know, that’s where financiers come in. And you may know a few of those. So, last question for you today, Akima. you’ve just shared with us huge amounts of advice throughout this entire show, but do you have a single piece of advice that you like to give to those who are maybe starting out in the business? Orlando might be in a little bit and trying to get to that next level.

Okema T. Moore: Nine times out of ten, your next level is sitting next to you. Everybody is always trying to get to the top person, but usually your next level is right here. Or is the person under the top person? Because I can guarantee you, I’ve never met Oprah, but I’ve worked for her three times because of who I was next to. So I would tell people all the time, look to your left. Look to your right. That is your way up.

Steve Cuden: You’re always looking for that degree of separation to the next place.

Okema T. Moore: Yep. And it’s really hard to get to the top person, especially now, because everything’s so accessible. The ranks close very quickly and very hard. So the easiest thing to do is, like, if you’re trying to meet Ava, Ava’s not gonna have time to meet you 90% of the time. But Ava has an assistant, and Ava’s assistant’s dream is to be Ava. So if her or him, whoever their assistant is, can bring Ava the next whatever, that’s their closest thing to being Ava. So if you take your wonderful story to Ava’s number two, number three assistant, and it’s as great as you think it is, they can then get it up the length, and now look how good they look. Right? So you always need to look at a lateral space to get to a.

Steve Cuden: Vertical place, but you’re saying something important in there, which is that you need to have something to take with you. It just can’t be. Hey, please give me help. It has to be for something that maybe benefits that next level.

Okema T. Moore: well, that’s what I also tell people. You have two hands for a reason. One is to give and one is to receive. And so if you are not utilizing them both, then there’s a problem. And that’s whether you’re being a consistent giver and not getting anything for it, because now you’re not going to grow and progress, or if you’re a consistent taker and not giving anything, well, now everybody knows you’re a taker, so you’re not going to be taken seriously. So you really do have to make sure and listen, they always say, have all your ducks in a row. Sometimes one of them joints is going to be a pigeon. It’s okay. It’s okay. But if you are trying your best and you have something, it’s okay if all your ducks are in a row. But number seven doesn’t quack. It just kind of, you know, it’s all right.

Steve Cuden: Well, it’s pretty rare to hit it 100% out of the park.

Okema T. Moore: For anyone.

Steve Cuden: For anyone.

Okema T. Moore: Ava, don’t, hit it 100%.

Steve Cuden: Well, you know, your best baseball players are hitting at 300%, which is one out of every three. So if you’re doing six out of seven, that’s really great.

Okema T. Moore: Yeah, but it’s okay if you’re doing two out of seven. Sure, at first, right? Because now you study. Why did I only have two? How can next time I have three or four? And so it really. It’s up to you to understand. I don’t have to be Perfect. I just have to get better.

Steve Cuden: You have just given us a masterclass in exactly how to be as a human being in the arts. I think that’s really fantastic stuff, okemah. This has been such fun for me, and so really revealing and educational and all these wonderful things, and I can’t thank you enough for your time, your extraordinary energy and all this brilliant wisdom. So I thank you so much for being on the show with me today.

Okema T. Moore: No, thank you so much for having me. And, you know, I know that this interview is about me, but I wouldn’t be here if you hadn’t done all the extraordinary work that you’ve done. So kudos to you for all that you’ve done. And for now, saying, I’ve done all this great things, I want to make a platform to put other people up, and elevate them. So thank you for that, because without your footwork from the beginning, we wouldn’t be here.

Steve Cuden: Well, I thank you kindly for saying that. And I’m blushing a little bit. And, you know, I can’t do great shows without great guests, and that means you. So I thank you kindly.

Okema T. Moore: This has been awesome.

Steve Cuden: And so we’ve come to the end of today’s StoryBeat If you liked this episode, won’t you please take a moment to give us a comment, rating, or review on whatever app or platform you’re listening to? Your support helps us bring more great StoryBeat episodes to you. story is available on all major podcast apps and platforms, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, iheartradio, tune in, and many others. Until next time, I’m Steve Cuden, and may all your stories be unforgettable.