Steve Cuden: On today’s StoryBeat.

Michelle Danner: Study. Be patient. Breathe, but study. I see the things that I didn’t do when I was younger, and I see the things that my son does. He literally watches, I want to say, four movies a day, probably not that many, but he watches at least a couple every day. And he studies them and he has the ability to watch them over and over and over again. And that was the defence mechanism that I had when I was younger that I did not want to do. And I think it robbed me from the ability to go deeper in my craft. So the degree to which you’re willing to watch things over and over again and study them and absorb them, I think is a great tool for any artist.

Announcer: This is StoryBeat with Steve Cuden, a podcast for the creative mind. StoryBeat explores how masters of creativity develop and produce brilliant works that people everywhere love and admire. So join us as we discover how talented creators find success in the worlds of imagination and entertainment. Here now is your host, Steve Cuden.

Steve Cuden: Thanks for joining us on StoryBeat. We’re coming to you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My guest today, actor director Michelle Danner, is also an acting coach at the Los Angeles Acting school who specializes in the Meisner, Strasberg, Adler, Hagen, Chekhov, and Stanislowski techniques alongside Larry Moss. She’s also the founding and artistic director of the Edgemars center for the Arts. In 2006, Michelle made her feature film directing debut with how to go out on a date in Queens, winning the LA Film Awards, best acting and best movie awards. Her 2013 film hello Herman catalogues the effect that peer abuse, parental neglect, and the general coarsening of society has on a typical high school student. Michelle has acted in and directed over 30 plays in the Los Angeles and New York areas with her favorite acting credits cited as the drama log, award winning Tennessee Williams the Rose Tatoo. Among her other award winning stage work, she produced the Night of the Black Cat at Edgemar, she directed the world premiere of Mental the Musical, and she wrote and directed you’re on the Air, an improvisation based comedy. Michelle also produced and acted in the award winning short dos corasones, directed by Larry Moss, and she was voted favorite acting coach by the readers of Backstage. Notable projects Michelle has directed include Bad Impulse with Paul Servino, ticket to the Circus, which is a one woman play about the life of Norris Church Mailer, starring Anne Archer and most recently, she produced and directed the feature Miranda’s victim, a, biographical crime drama depicting the origins of the well known Miranda warning. The movie stars Abigail Breslin Luke Wilson, Andy Garcia, Donald Sutherland, Ryan Philippe, Kyle McLaughlin, Marie Enos, Taryn Manning, and Emily Van Kamp. I’ve seen Miranda’s victim and can tell you it’s an intense and deeply emotional story about how the legal system can be impacted and changed by overcoming injustice and challenging circumstances. I highly recommend it to you. So for all those reasons and many more, it’s a truly great honor and privilege for me to welcome the brilliant, prolific, multi talented Michelle Danner to StoryBeat today. Michelle, welcome to the show.

Michelle Danner: Hi. How are you? Thank you, so much for having me.

Steve Cuden: Well, thank you for being with me today. So let’s go back in time just a little bit. Tell us a bit of your history. You’ve been at the acting, writing and directing game and also teaching for a little while. How old were you when the show biz bug first bit you?

Michelle Danner: Well, according to my parents I was, you know, four, two years old or three. My dad opened the very, very first William Morris agency in Paris.

Steve Cuden: Wow.

Michelle Danner: And, yeah, so, he brought the agents home from the office, and I apparently was told that I would tap dance on the coffee table and do imitations of Hitchcock and Ed Sullivan and Judy Garland. And so I was a, little entertainer way back then. I remember vividly going to my dad’s office and playing under his desk and watching people come in, talk about their dreams and acting their dreams as entertainers. So I had a great childhood in Europe, in France, traveled all over Europe.

Steve Cuden: So you were already in show business right from the get go because your father was in show business?

Michelle Danner: Yes.

Steve Cuden: So you were exposed to all of it. Did you go to see movies and plays and all that when you were very young?

Michelle Danner: I was avidly. I went everywhere. I remember even at some point cutting classes. But that’s when I was a teenager to go see, young Frankenstein with Gene Wilder and Madison Khan on the shaeans. I remember not going to school for that and then getting in. I mean, I loved museums. I loved books. I created a little library in my closet where I would go with a candle. And now when I think back on it, I go, thank God I didn’t set fire to the whole closet. But I loved to read. I love to go to museums. I love to go to the theater. I loved, going to the movies. I was always into the arts. And to this day, I do the exact same thing. And now that I have two kids, I take them everywhere and expose them to everything.

Steve Cuden: Well, that’s great. Are either of them interested in being in the business?

Michelle Danner: Yes. One of them is graduating from USC school of dramatic arts and cinematic arts in May. He just loves anything that has to do with storytelling. And people hate to go to the movies with us because we turn to each other and keep whispering things. And this shot, and what about this moment? And my other kid is actually not really into the arts. He’s an athlete and into business. So they’re always different. They don’t come out alike.

Steve Cuden: So you have many different skill sets. You’ve obviously been an actor for a long time. You also direct, you’ve written, and you teach, among many other things I’m sure that you do within the arts. I’m wondering, is there one or more of those things that you really think of yourself as? For instance, when people ask me what I do, I usually tell them I’m a writer, though I do other things as well. Is there something that you think of yourself primarily as?

Michelle Danner: I don’t think so, because I think of myself primarily as a storyteller.

Steve Cuden: And that’s exactly what you are. You are a storyteller on every medium.

Michelle Danner: I’m a storyteller, and I’m fascinated by stories. I always tell my students when I teach, I go, that’s the oldest profession around a campfire. I mean, people think that it’s that oldest profession, but it’s not that profession. Storytellers are the oldest profession.

Steve Cuden: It’s interesting. Some people think that the storyteller of a movie or a play or a tv show is the writer or the director, but not the actors. But I think every member of the crew is a part of the storytelling. Don’t you?

Michelle Danner: Most definitely. Everybody in front of the camera, behind the camera, the whole entire team. And that’s why when you watch a movie or a tv show and you watch the scroll at the end of it, and that it took that kind of a village to make it happen. Everybody is a storyteller that’s involved.

Steve Cuden: Indeed. Indeed. How long do you think you were at the acting game and then the directing game before you thought you were actually really good at it? Good enough to make a career out of it?

Michelle Danner: Oh, my God. I don’t think I’m good at it. As a matter of fact, I have been wondering if I have handed down my kids this complex of insecurity. I, mean, for instance, with miranda’s victim, I was like, I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. And my kid is, you know, my kid’s like, you’ve made a good movie. You made a good movie. I’m beyond. And listen, I think every artist on the face of this earth has something in common. Everybody is insecure. There’s just different degrees of insecurity. I don’t have insecurity so that it paralyzes me from achieving things. Definitely not. But, I could tell you that I’m highly insecure.

Steve Cuden: Well, many people, including me, at times have impostor syndrome. Is that what you’re saying? Do you feel like you’re just fooling people that you can do this a little bit, but you’re really not going to be able to do it? Is that how you think?

Michelle Danner: No, I know that I can do it. I know that I have the skills and the knowledge. I just don’t know that the outcome is any good. I think that I feel confident that I know how to do it.

Steve Cuden: your skill set is that you know how to do this, but you’re not sure whether others will like what you’ve done. Is that the idea?

Michelle Danner: Well, I don’t really care about that part. Well, of course it’s better to have some success than failing at it because it’s more painful. But, I mean, listen, I’ve gotten great reviews and I’ve gotten horrific reviews, and both for the same movie, by the way, for the same play. So I know that roller coaster. I’m very well aware of what that is. At the end of the day, that just, rolls off of me. No, I’m just not sure that I just want people to see it. Of course I’d like people to like it, but, I mean, if they don’t like it, I think every artist has to, at some point, please themselves first, and then so be it.

Steve Cuden: I think that’s the biggest key of all, is that you’ve got to please yourself first.

Michelle Danner: Sure. You would agree with that? Yeah. And it falls where it falls. Of course. Like I said, I like it better when, more people like it than not.

Steve Cuden: So you brought up Miranda’s victim. Let’s talk about that for a moment. Aside from the obvious, that the story is about the development of the Miranda warning that we all know, from movies and tv shows forever, what’s the personal side of the story? What attracted you to Miranda’s victim in the first place?

Michelle Danner: What attracted me is that it was a story about survival and it was a story about justice and standing up for your truth. And for a young girl who’s 18 years old, and we’re in 1963 in Phoenix, Arizona, with all the society pressures that surround her, that she was able to be that strong. It’s a story of strength and stick to her guns no matter what and relive this nightmare that happened to her. the other thing that I really liked about the story, I went to Phoenix. I walked her path. That night when she walked at the paramount, I went to the bus stop and I had an unexpected response. When I stood at the bus stop, where she got off, I started to cry. I said, well, she hadn’t taken that bus. If she hadn’t had the crush on her coworker, she would take in an earlier bus and it wouldn’t have been her. She wouldn’t have been the one that got kidnapped. But then I thought to myself, but it had to be her because she had to stop it. This was a serial rapist on the street, and she was going to speak out. She was going to fight for him to be brought to justice. So then I thought, well, it had to be her. I mean, I really like the theme of if you miss the bus by five minutes, your life completely changes.

Steve Cuden: Well, that’s true for all kinds of things in life, isn’t there?

Michelle Danner: Yes, it certainly is.

Steve Cuden: So what were the biggest challenges in getting the movie produced?

Michelle Danner: That movie fell into place. I don’t want to say quite easily, because everything is work, but, Donald Sutherland was the first actor that came on board. And, he always reminded me of my father. And the moment when he said yes, I felt that my father’s no longer here on earth, but that he was looking down and helping out. I got along very well with Mr. Sutherland. He is just such a legend. he was, an extraordinary actor to work with. and then Andy Garcia came on board. And then I met, with Abigail Breslin. And, she was brave enough to say yes. And then the rest of a lot of the people that we offered it to were my first choices. That’s very unusual. So, I had a vision for which actors I wanted to play these historical figures. And we went and we shot some of it in Arizona later on. First in New Jersey. We did principal photography in New Jersey. These towns in New Jersey, red Bank and Middletown and, mammoth resemble those towns back then. So it was a great place to shoot. And really I had a phenomenal team. production designer, costume designer, my first ad, my cinematographer, all people that I will continue to collaborate in the future. And then I had this extraordinary cast.

Steve Cuden: It really looks great. It, came together extremely well on screen, and it’s very emotional. It’s very powerful at the end of that movie, it’s very powerful.

Michelle Danner: Thank you. Yeah, we worked really hard. I had a great family around me, and, every day was just joyous. Even a couple of days I was sick because we had the rules of COVID on set. But, they let me wear this clear mask that covered my face. and because we had these scenes we shot in an authentic police station of the 60s, we shot in an authentic courthouse. And so there was smoking in that day. There’s a lot of smoking. And some of that smoke came under the mask. and I got a throat infection, I remember distinctly. So I went during lunch on one of the days that I was sick to urgent care, and the urgent care doctor kept calling me and asking me to go to the emergency room. She was afraid that I had developed something in my throat and that could go to my blood and I could die. And I was like, well, if I leave the set now, nothing is being shot. We lose the day. So I said, I’ll go, but I have to finish the day first. I’ve got to finish my shots. And I did, and I went and, thankfully, they were able to work it out. I didn’t have to have surgery. But, I just remember that in terms of a challenge, that smoke that went into the mask.

Steve Cuden: So you were able to cast, as we’ve just mentioned, really great actors. I’m just curious. Some of these are big stars. Donald Sutherland’s a big star. Andy Garcia is a big star. Ryan Philippe and Abigail Breslin, et you, when you’re directing actors that are known or celebrities, do you treat them differently than everyone else or is everyone treated in the same way?

Michelle Danner: Well, no, everybody’s treated differently based on who they are and what the interaction is. I mean, every actor that comes on set, whether they’re well known or not well known, is looking to be able to trust their director. They’re looking to be able to be safe so that they can play and take some chances, and embody this character that they’re portraying the best that they can. And so they’re looking for a, you know, I told myself, what the hell am I going to tell Donald Sutherland? What am I going to say to him? Like, nothing. I’m just going to watch him, as the rest of the cast know, in awe. But I have found, as I’ve worked with legends, that they want feedback. They want me to say something. And so, I’m happy to offer feedback. Ah. as a matter of fact, I ran into some of the featured actors when I was in New Jersey and they said you gave a lot of notes to everybody. I don’t give a lot of notes because danger to giving a lot of notes would be that you immediately shut down an actor. So I’m not going to do that, but you just have to intuitively see how do you talk to someone? What can you give them, what can you offer them so that they can play and do something maybe a little bit different so that when I later on am in the editing room with my wonderful editor, I have choices?

Steve Cuden: Well, part of the job of a director, obviously, is to be the person who creates the entire, feeling of the movie, the tone of the movie, the thrust of it. It can’t be that you have people acting in different movies. It won’t look very good. So what is it that you do? How do you approach, the notion of here’s the story, and now I need to make it all of a piece. What is your philosophy toward that?

Michelle Danner: I do a lot of research, first of all.

Michelle Danner: So I can have conversations and I can inspire everybody, so everybody’s on the same page, so I can be the captain of the ship and steer them in the right direction. So, I try as much as possible to do the most precise research that I can. For instance, now I’m going to be directing. It looks like, a romantic comedy in the heart of this beautiful town in Italy. so I’ve, plunged myself into watching all these movies about people falling in love, which is great and fun. I’d really like to be really well prepared as much as possible so that I can have a very strong vision. And because that’s what the captain of the ship has to have and be opinionated and not wishy washy astrologically, I have a libra moon, and that’s a killer for me because when you have libra in you, I don’t know if you know anything about astrology. You can see it that way, and you can see it that way, and you can see it that way, you can see it another way, and I can see it a million different ways. And so I have to just say, okay, just pick something and stick with it.

Steve Cuden: Well, I happen to be a libra.

Michelle Danner: Oh, that’s my favorite sign in the zodiac.

Steve Cuden: So there you go, I get the problem. I see everything.

Michelle Danner: It’s the best sign. I’m a Capricorn astrologically, but I love.

Steve Cuden: Libras and I’m a Capricorn moon.

Michelle Danner: Oh, my God. Oh, that’s a difficult moon, though.

Steve Cuden: Yes, it is. So I’m wondering, once you have a green light on a picture, what is it that you do to get yourself ready for production? Where do you begin?

Michelle Danner: Well, I work on the script. I create a shooting script.

Steve Cuden: What does that mean? Explain that. For those who don’t know. When you say create a shooting script, what are you doing?

Michelle Danner: I, do some rewrites. Offer some rewrites. I move it around a little bit because, listen, there’s the movie that’s on the page, the movie you shoot, and then the movie that you edit.

Steve Cuden: Sure.

Michelle Danner: And one of the things I’ve always admired know, obviously, directors like Steven Spielberg that edit in their know, and they know things ahead of time. That, of course, comes with experience. So I try as much as possible to do a visual board to visualize it. I watch a lot of movies. For instance, I just watched this movie before sunrise, which is such a classic, to inspire me. And I do, a lot of watching other movies. And I think, thematically, about what I want to say. What is it that, the message of this movie should be? What is it really about? What are the characters really about? So I dissect it. I dissect it. I script analyze it. And the more that I can do that work, the easier it is for me when I’m talking to everybody.

Steve Cuden: So, you break down every character in your head, at least?

Michelle Danner: Yes, absolutely. Because every character, even smaller ones, need an arc. And I try to create that arc. And what else? Then I start to think about casting. And then I just had meetings. Now I’m having a great meeting tomorrow morning. I can’t say with who, but I’m very excited about this. and then I reach out to actors that I know. I audition some actors. maybe storyboard. Probably not on this one coming up, I did storyboard some of Miranda’s victim, the courtroom scenes. I have a great storyboard artist that I love.

Steve Cuden: How important is that storyboarding to visualizing what you want to do?

Michelle Danner: It depends what the scenes are for. I love storyboarding. I mean, it’s part of preparation. The more prepared you are, the better it is. I’m going to be directing a, ah, movie called Helios, which is a Sci-Fi thriller, action thriller, which I’m really excited about. It’s got all these authentic space companies that are attached. They’re sponsoring it. I’ll be doing lots of storyboarding on that one.

Steve Cuden: Well, when you’re directing action. It’s really helpful to have that previsualized, isn’t it?

Michelle Danner: Oh, yeah. No question about it. after I have a shooting script, I meet with all the department heads, which I already did on this next movie. I met with the production designer, the costume designer, the sound mixer. I meet with who’s going to be my artistic team. I already know who my DP is going to be because I’m, bringing in my DP that I’ve worked with before. And my first ad, which is crucial to me, had an incredible first ad and DP on miranda’s victim and my editor. I mean, these are some key positions, and you have a shorthand with people, so listen, not to boast, but I’m so lucky. I am surrounded with extraordinary people, extraordinary artists.

Steve Cuden: Makes your life a lot easier when they’re good.

Michelle Danner: Yeah. I couldn’t be, any more grateful than I am.

Steve Cuden: You mentioned casting earlier, and we’ve also talked about stars, and you’re already talking to people and so on. How important to the success of the outcome of any movie or tv show or play, for that matter, is casting?

Michelle Danner: Well, I mean, it’s everything, because if you don’t cast it right, then it’s a problem. So hopefully you get it right. Let’s say you cast two people as romantic leads and there’s zero chemistry with them. That’s a problem. Now, can you argue that you can somehow create chemistry? maybe. I don’t know. Maybe if you up the stakes and give them things that will make it sizzle.

Steve Cuden: Well, there are stories out in the world of actors who absolutely detested one another, but you can’t see it on screen because they were just that good at pulling it off. But that’s not the ideal way to go. Right.

Michelle Danner: But that’s energy. People that detest each other create a certain energy. And that’s good. That’s good energy because it translates into something creates tension. Absolutely.

Steve Cuden: How important is conflict? Not between people working, but conflict in a story?

Michelle Danner: Well, I mean, it’s everything. If there’s not conflict, if there’s no obstacle, then there’s nothing that you’re fighting for, and therefore, as an audience, nothing that you’re rooting for.

Steve Cuden: So what’s the most fulfilling thing about directing for you? What is it that you love the most?

Michelle Danner: The composition. It’s all the pieces of the puzzle coming together. Although I don’t do puzzles. I bought a lot of puzzles during COVID I didn’t do a single one of them. But I think for filmmaking, it would have to be putting the pieces of the puzzle together, no question.

Steve Cuden: It’s all a big puzzle piece, isn’t it?

Michelle Danner: Right, yeah, totally. I love the putting together of it. It’s like that song in Sunday in the park with George. That song, you know, putting it together.

Steve Cuden: I love that bit by bit. Do you have a particular strategy, that you use when you are developing a scene for where you’re going to put cameras, where you want to place the actors, how they move? Do you have some sort of a typical way that you go about that, or do you feel it out when you’re on set?

Michelle Danner: Well, when I’m doing my walk through my tech scout and I come back, I come back to the location, I definitely start to brainstorm, as to how I’m going to shoot it based on what the scene is about. How am I going to cover the scene? I have preliminary meetings with my director of photography. We do a shot list because that’s what creates safety in people. When you share your shot list with the rest of the team, then people feel that they can experiment based on the blueprint, the plan that you’re giving them.

Steve Cuden: Okay, that’s interesting. What do you mean by they feel that they can experiment? How does that work?

Michelle Danner: Well, because everybody, whether you’re the gaffer or whether you’re the key grip, everybody, when you think of a key grip or you think of a gaffer, you go, well, that might not be the most artistic position. but actually it is as well. it is to really do that job creatively so that the shot looks great. Everybody lends, their talent.

Steve Cuden: How often do you walk on a set and you think that they’re finished? Or maybe they are finished and it’s not the way you thought it would be? Does that happen?

Michelle Danner: Not really.

Steve Cuden: Not really. So you’ve got a great crew walk.

Michelle Danner: Away for that long that I would come back and be that surprised. I’d be checking in to make sure it’s happening the way I want it.

Steve Cuden: So you’ve got it set up where people are working at their best level and efficiently at the same time?

Michelle Danner: Oh, yeah, totally. No, absolutely. I mean, it has to do with communication and how clear you are. And this is what I want, and this is how I want it.

Steve Cuden: So you’ve been working with actors forever, not just, as a director, but as an actor and also as an acting teacher. What are the biggest issues that you see with actors who come on sets and maybe aren’t quite ready or are really nervous or, are not really pulling through what you want. What is your technique for getting them to go where you want them to go?

Michelle Danner: Yeah, I put them at ease. I think. I’ve been told that I have a calming effect, so I put people at ease, and that’s happened. People have come on set highly nervous. You have to keep it light. It’s not also serious. Even if you’re doing a movie about rape, you have to stay light and stay, upbeat and keep inspiring people to do the best that they can, even if they’re struggling. I mean, I have struggled as an actor. I have done. I had to do a scene where I had to cut hair and do this and do that and juggle all these balls, and all the lines flew out of my head. And you just have to stay calm and just know that you just need one take.

Steve Cuden: Well, sometimes actors are trying to remember lines that they memorize, not while doing things right. Then they come on set and they’re trying to handle all of the props, the movement, and so on. And it throws them, doesn’t it?

Michelle Danner: Exactly. That’s right. especially because a lot with acting, it’s like the bicycle. But the good news is, after you haven’t ridden the bicycle and you’re rusty, you start to ride, and then it all comes back. A lot of the times, some actors haven’t worked for months, so you get rusty, you come on set, and, I mean, I’ve had that. I’ve had this actor come, and I remember him particularly because he forgot every single line of the scene, and he was struggling. And I just put him at ease and say, it’s okay. Don’t worry about it. Just keep doing it. We’ll play. And we finally got it.

Steve Cuden: How important do you think it’s been in your directing career that you also have an acting background? How important is that?

Michelle Danner: I think that that’s great. That’s really helpful, because I understand actors. I understand what the work is. I feel that I know what kind of feedback, I can give that can help the scene, change and take us into maybe either another direction or elevate the choice that’s there.

Steve Cuden: And you don’t need to name any names. So have you ever worked with the director who was not giving that to you, was not helping you?

Michelle Danner: Well, I mean, I worked with a wonderful director as an actress. Henry, Jacqueline, I don’t know if very well known.

Steve Cuden: Henry is sure.

Michelle Danner: And so it was a great story, and I wrote him this long letter, so he came to see me on stage. Do a play, because I love theater. And I played a psychic, and he said, I’m going to do this movie called Ovation. Would you play the psychic in this movie? And do you love to improv? He said, and I lied. I outright said yes, of course, Henry. I love to improv. And the truth is that when I teach classes, I advocate loving improvisation for actors. I particularly hate it. I don’t like improv. For me, I don’t like to, feel like I could be an asshole if I get out of my head like that, because I can’t control any of the impulses. So I go on set and I’m really pissed off with myself that I said yes to this. And there’s no script, there’s only an outline. And every scene, you’re improvising every scene. So I decided I need to get out of here. I said, so I go to the bathroom and I hide in the bathroom, but they come get me. So then I come and I do this scene, and I’m like, I don’t know what says, And this is the first time that Henry worked with HD. He was working on film before, so we should say that because he didn’t call cut for the longest time. So the scene starts and I am in my head. I mean, I’m in my head. I’m so much in pain. I’m like, this is terrible. You suck. I can’t wait for this to be over. I have a very negative m voice that. And we’re five minutes into the scene, I’m like, that’s it. It’s enough. I’m going to cut. I’m cutting. No, you can’t cut. You’re not directing this movie. You’re not the director. You cannot cut. You just have to stay in it until somebody else calls. Until Henry calls. Cut. And then I heard the click. After. It was a 15 minutes scene total, five minutes in, I heard a click, and the click inside of me went, fuck it. Just get out of your head. And I got out of my head and I heard. I did a lot of different things. I hit a lot of different emotions. people were a little bit laughing behind. It turned out really good. Fast forward. It’s the DGA. It’s opening. The movie’s opening, it’s the premiere. And my scene is quite long. And he basically edited the best moments of those 15 minutes. But, I remember thinking I had such a great experience that night. I went home and I couldn’t fall asleep because I had gotten out of my head like, I had never gone out of my head before, so I was very grateful to Henry for having given me that experience.

Steve Cuden: All right, so explain for the listeners who may not know what you mean when you say gotten out of your head, because actors are very much in their head. Usually. Yes.

Michelle Danner: It’s abandoning mental activity. It’s what that wonderful author Edgar Toll says. When you have to put a stop button in your mind, it’s what you do when you meditate. You just literally. That’s why meditation is such a great tool for actors. You don’t think.

Steve Cuden: You just, do you, do you react? You be.

Michelle Danner: And that’s one of the things that actors have to embrace, is letting go of the thinking process.

Steve Cuden: Why?

Michelle Danner: Because great acting is not mental, it’s not intellectual. There’s a component of it is intellectual when you script, analyze when you think about your character, but in the execution of it, you must let go fully.

Steve Cuden: And are there secrets or tricks to getting there?

Michelle Danner: Well, Sandy Meisener taught it in a wonderful way through a series of exercises, which is take the attention off of yourself and put it onto the other person. Be very immersed with the other person. And that is a great tool for being in the moment.

Steve Cuden: So then how important is listening?

Michelle Danner: You have to not just listen, but you have to listen actively. You have to listen to what the person is saying underneath what they’re saying.

Steve Cuden: And does that help get you out of your head?

Michelle Danner: Absolutely. Because you’re not on yourself.

Steve Cuden: So now, you already said that you don’t like improvisation, and yet that was maybe one of the better things that you turned out doing.

Michelle Danner: Well, yes. And recently, I acted in a movie this summer, and all the moments that I love have to do with improvisation, all of them. Well, that gave me a certain confidence, working on ovation that I could do this improvisation thing that actually, I wasn’t so bad at it.

Steve Cuden: Well, aren’t we basically improvising all day long as humans? Absolutely.

Michelle Danner: But that’s when you have a camera on your face or.

Steve Cuden: No kidding. So when you’re reading a script, because most of the time, I’m sure you’re dealing with a written script or you’re writing it yourself, what is it for you that makes a part attractive? What is it for you that makes a good role good?

Michelle Danner: Well, if there’s a lot of colors, if there’s a rainbow to it, if there are obstacles, if it’s about something, if there’s an arc, it’s the arc.

Steve Cuden: It’s that transition from what I like to describe as the want to a need throughout a story. You can get that out of a script. most actors can anyway.

Michelle Danner: Absolutely. And also, I loved what Helen Mirren said about how she picks her roles. She goes to the last scene of, her character, and depending on how her character exits the story, is the degree to which she’s interested in playing that person.

Steve Cuden: Interesting. She wants to see how that character winds up at the end. Yeah, very interesting. Are there roles that you absolutely avoid for one reason or another?

Michelle Danner: No. I mean, I direct more than I act, but, no. I’d like to play villains and I like to play good people and bad people. I think that if you’re an actor, you have to embrace range.

Steve Cuden: Is there a difference for an actor, who’s working on a role that has never been performed before, versus you’re in a play like the rose Tatoo that’s been performed many times and has iconic performances prior to yours. Is there a difference in the way you approach a role like that?

Michelle Danner: well, I think that when you, for instance, I remember I got a review from the LA Times, which was quite a good review, and it said, undaunted by Anna Mani. Yeah, obviously you try not to. And I did. I watched Anna Manani in the Rose Tatoo before I did it and was inspired by it. And I do not feel that I copied that performance in the least. but I was definitely inspired by it. Listen, I think it’s great if there is something that you can see or if it’s a biopic and it’s a real person that you’re playing, but if you’re creating it from scratch and there’s nothing that one can compare it to, that’s good, too.

Steve Cuden: Do you find that you’re freer when it’s something no one’s ever seen before?

Michelle Danner: Well, for me, in the rose tatoo, I felt very free because my mother was italian and so I had that blood memory to go with. So that freed me. So I didn’t feel the pressure of, Oh, this is a great play. know, Tennessee Williams or Anna Manani immortalized it on screen. I didn’t feel any of that.

Steve Cuden: You came to it as if it were. Nobody had ever done it. You were doing it fresh, right?

Michelle Danner: Well, it hadn’t been done in LA when we did it. It’s funny you asked me this because, it hadn’t been performed in 18 years. Nobody could get the rights to it. And I only got the rights to it by a fluke because I had been promised the rights of Orpheus descending. And they ended up, by mistake, giving it to somebody else. And so, by a fluke, then said, you know what? I’m going to give you the rights to the rose tattoo.

Steve Cuden: Wow.

Michelle Danner: Service. And I knew this wonderful actor, Rob Estes, who at the time was on Melrose place, and we started to work on it, had a wonderful director, Deborah Levine, who now heads the film department up in North Carolina. And, we ran for almost a year with 21 people in the cast and a goat. We won awards. It was a great experience. So, fast forward the clock, how many years later would that be? Maybe 20 years later.

Steve Cuden: Almost 20 years later. 18 years later, 19 years later, I.

Michelle Danner: Have a script that is sent to me called the Italians, and I really liked the story. I felt it had a lot of heart. It was about, this mother who has her son bring home this girlfriend, and she becomes the worst nightmare, that, she’s like the girlfriend from hell. And I thought, I have to call Rob to do this, because him and I, 20 years ago, did the rose tatoo and had such great chemistry, and we’ve remained friends since. And he came in, he played. So he’s in the Italians with me, which now is going to actually premiere at the Italian American Film festival at the chinese theater March 4. I’m, in post production for that movie. and so it’s great, because this relationship between Vincenzo, the character that Rob plays in my character, Angelina, it’s like we really have this texture of a relationship. This couple has been married for 30 years, and that’s for almost as long as Rob and I have known each other.

Steve Cuden: Wow. it’s great.

Michelle Danner: The fact that you brought up the rose tatoo just reminded me that we had a great experience doing that play. And now, in a way, the Italians. This movie that I just shot this summer is an homage to that, in a way.

Steve Cuden: Nice. That’s very nice. What do you think that you have learned over time from the better directors you’ve worked with? What tips or tricks from those directors have you learned?

Michelle Danner: to really have a vision for the story, you really have to have a strong vision, because that’s the only way you’re going to inspire a whole group of people.

Steve Cuden: I think that’s really fantastic. I am curious. Actors have to memorize lines. Is there something that you teach actors about memorization to help them figure out how to keep lots of lines in their head?

Michelle Danner: I like this idea of recording the other person on your phone and then leaving a space for your lines. Because then it really trains you to listen and to really be affected and to be aware. What are you answering? so I like that particularly. And I like just picking up the script and taking your dialogue. And trying different intentions through the dialogue. I think that helps physicalizing. I just don’t think that. I mean, I know there are some people that it’s hard to commit to memory. But I think that the more you do it, the body has muscle memory. So it retains it. Where you can get a little, thrown off is that if you know the dialogue. But then in the moment, you have to add physical activity. That can really plunge you back into your head. So I think that if you have a physical activity, you really should rehearse it like that.

Steve Cuden: It’s interesting. I’ve had the great privilege of speaking with a number of soap opera actors. And they all say sort of the similar thing. That when they start out, they don’t know how they’re going to remember all those lines. And then over time, it just gets really easy for them. Because it is like muscle memory, as you say. Do you find that when you’ve been acting. That the more that you’ve acted, the easier it gets?

Michelle Danner: I think so. That’s why I think it’s saying the same group of actors keeps acting. And then there’s a whole group of actors that unfortunately doesn’t get, you know, that’s why work gets you work.

Steve Cuden: So, today, most actors that are going to audition for something in Hollywood are going to do it probably from home on a camera or a cell phone or something like that. And, then submit that as opposed to going to an office and auditioning in front of a casting director or a director. What advice do you give to your students about, the best way to approach auditioning? To try and land a role, to.

Michelle Danner: Really understand the tone of it, to understand what’s the world of the story. And as much as possible. Because I think people hire actors based on how they understand that, not just their looks. Oh, no. It’s understanding the tone of the story, the genre. And how does your character fit in into the puzzle. And if you see that the actor understands that, then you can see how they can be part of it.

Steve Cuden: So what does an actor do if they’re not given the whole or given any advice as to what the tone of the whole piece is? How do you see through that? How do you figure it out?

Michelle Danner: You can figure it out based on what is given to you on the scene. And if it really is not clear. Then when you get in there, just, you start a conversation. I mean, not the, gone with the wind conversation, because people are in a hurry, but you start by, you just ask a few questions and see if you can get clarity. Or call the office and, or call your agent or your manager and see if they can get you as much information as possible so you know what you’re walking into.

Steve Cuden: That’s very smart.

Michelle Danner: research the people that you’re auditioning for so you understand. I mean, usually directors, in a way. I mean, not literally, but in a way, they direct the same movie over and over again. In a way. so research the director, research the writer.

Steve Cuden: That’s very wise. I want to speak to you for a moment about your coaching that you do, because you’ve done a lot of that, too. Do you enjoy it? Is coaching fun for you? Do you enjoy it?

Michelle Danner: Very much so. I really like the one on one. I like the in depth conversation with the actor. Whether they’re working on a project or it’s just general, to come and just work on their instrument. I like very much that process. Yes.

Steve Cuden: I’m wondering if you like me, sometimes get more from your students than you give to them.

Michelle Danner: well, hopefully not.

Steve Cuden: I find that I learn things by teaching people.

Michelle Danner: I definitely always get something from every interaction, including this one right now. But, that’s not the, mandate, right.

Steve Cuden: I’m being a little hyperbolic when I say I get more from them than they get from me.

Michelle Danner: But somebody comes for coaching, it’s really, you have to be of service.

Steve Cuden: Well, that’s true. You are of service to someone else and their dreams and their desires and their, ability to learn what for you makes it a good or an ideal student. Who do you prefer to work with? Somebody that’s really into it or someone that’s a little bit challenging for you?

Michelle Danner: Well, no, I mean, definitely somebody who’s into it. And if they’re not into it, then you try to get them there and raise the bar for them. And if it’s not meant to be, it’s not meant to be, but as much as possible, if people come to you, and I know I’ve had instances where people have come and they haven’t really been into it, but for whatever reason, they landed this part. But it happens. It happens that people are not into it, and therefore you try. Usually, because I’m able to talk about the emotional circumstances that are given, I can get them into it. It’s very rare that I’m not able to.

Steve Cuden: So how important do you think is teaching to directing? Are directors teachers as well?

Michelle Danner: Director? Listen, you could argue that everything in life teaches you something. Everybody’s a teacher, but, it’s a very different process. When you direct, there’s a lot of balls that are in the air. Don’t have time to teach acting on set. So hopefully people come and it’s collaborative and there’s choices and there’s a conversation. But when you teach acting, then you really dig into the process and, I think it’s a fascinating conversation both for the actors. Let’s say if it’s a scene study class that are acting on the platform and those that are watching the process, and then when people bring back the work, we bring back the scene from week to week and you see the progress and light bulbs go off. I love that process.

Steve Cuden: It’s really great to see that light bulb go off in a student’s eyes and they go, oh, I get it. Nothing better for teaching. That is the whole joy of teaching. No doubt. I’ve been having this marvelous conversation with Michelle Danner. You’ve clearly worked with and met tons of people in the entertainment industry. And I’m wondering if you can share with us a, story that’s either weird, quirky, offbeat, strange, or just plain funny from all of your experiences.

Michelle Danner: Well, it wasn’t weird or strange. It was just that we were hit with thunderstorms on Miranda’s victim and I actually, it was like the most challenging day. So it’s the last day of the shoot and I have 27 setups that I need to get. And earlier in the day, I was swimming in this pool, this house that we rented on the ocean. And this bird comes to the edge of the pool and I’m, like talking to this bird. See, that’s a weird story. I’m telling this bird, how the fuck am I going to get 27 setups in one day? Like, that’s not possible. And I have this conversation. This bird lingers for a very long period of time. So I go on set and I gather everyone and I say, okay, well, this is what I need to get today. And everybody’s telling me, you’re completely crazy. It’s just not going to happen. And I just said, watch me. And it was the most incredible day of shooting. We went back to the bus stop, that location that we had lost because of the thunderstorms. And I knew that I was going to hit meal penalties. I had five minutes and I needed to get the scene where the police car is driving with the. I would never have gotten it on that street. And I said, move this, move that. I got it in one take. Normally, you do more than one take, but I go and I hit. That’s like, okay, cut. Let’s move to the next location on the ocean, where we were going to shoot the rape scene, which I had allocated a whole entire day for that. Now I only have less than 5 hours to do that. And so we get there, and, my dp is like, well, you can only shoot until 04:00 because the light comes up. Nothing is going to come out good in the car. And I’m like, oh, well, no, let’s black out the windows. I’m going in myself, handheld, and I’m going to get it. And lo and behold, I couldn’t believe it. But we stopped shooting exactly at 530. We did not go through one more minute of overtime. And I got all 27 setups that day. And I had told my wonderful housekeeper that I was going to be home at 07:00 a.m. And I walked into the house exactly at 07:00 a.m. Not at 06:59 a.m. Not at seven one. So I stayed on a schedule, and I went back, and I was shell shocked for a second there. I was like, how did you get this? And I was like, it’s that bird, isn’t it? That bird? That’s my weird story.

Steve Cuden: It’s always a bird in movies that it’s like the harbinger of something’s going to come, good or bad, but it’s frequently a bird. Find that very funny and interesting. Last question for you today. Michelle, you’ve already given us a huge amount of advice and lots of stuff to chew on, throughout this entire show. But I’m wondering if you have a single solid piece of advice or a tip that you like to give to people who are just starting out in the business, or maybe they’re in a little bit and trying to get to the next level.

Michelle Danner: Study. Be patient. Breathe, but study. I see the things that I didn’t do when I was younger, and I see the things that my son does. He literally watches, I want to say, four movies a day, probably not that many, but he watches at least a couple every day, and he studies them, and he has the ability to watch them over and over and over again. And that was a defense mechanism that I had when I was younger that I did not want to do. And I think it robbed me from the ability to go deeper in my craft. So the degree to which you’re willing to watch things over and over again and study them and absorb them, I think is a great tool for any artist.

Steve Cuden: I think that’s extraordinarily wise advice, and I’m m very glad that you shared that with us because I think study is everything. if you don’t study your craft and you don’t study the people that came before you, you’re probably going to stumble around until you maybe figure it out, if you’re lucky. But you have this opportunity to sit on the shoulders of the giants who came before you, and that’s really helpful. Michelle Danner, this has been a terrific hour on StoryBeat, and I can’t thank you enough for your time, your energy, your wisdom, and for just these fabulous stories of your, working your way through the industry. Thank you so much for being with me today.

Michelle Danner: Thank you so much. Thank you.

Steve Cuden: And so we’ve come to the end of today’s StoryBeat. If you like this episode, won’t you please take a moment to give us a comment, rating, or review on whatever app or platform you’re listening to? Your support helps us bring more great StoryBeat episodes to you. StoryBeat is available on all major podcast apps and platforms, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Tunein, and many others. Until next time, I’m Steve Cuden, and may all your stories be unforgettable.