Steve Cuden: On today’s StoryBeat…

Lisa Barnes: The best way you get anything out of a student or, uh, or an actor is to let them know they know what they’re doing, give them that confidence. And if they’re going offline or if they’re going into a different realm that isn’t working for the show, find what works. Say I’m seeing what this is doing and I think what where you’re headed so that you’re making the actor feel like they’re a collaborative person, not that you’re judging.

Announcer: This is StoryBeat with Steve Cuden, a podcast for the creative mind. StoryBeat explores how masters of creativity develop and produce brilliant works that people everywhere love and admire. So join us as we discover how talented creators find success in the worlds of imagination and entertainment. Here now is your host, Steve Cuden.

Steve Cuden: Thanks for joining us on StoryBeat. We’re coming to you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My guest today, Lisa Barnes, has spent two tours of duty as an actress in New York. First, after graduating from the University of Southern California’s theateratre department, she spent a number of years in the Big Apple. She acted in plays, off Broadway and in regional theaters while studying with the legendary Stell Adler as well. Along with a favorite Story Beat guest, Casey Childs, Lisa co founded the renowned Off Broadway theater company Primary Stages. She subsequently headed to Los Angeles where she performed in television and theater, winning numerous acting awards, including two Los Angeles Drama Critic Circle Awards. But in time, a stage show she did in LA directed by the late great Orson Bean moved to Off Broadway and Lisa then spent more than a decade in Gotham once again. Occasionally, when in New York, Lisa performs All of Us, a piece that she co wrote via Zoom with six other New York actress writers during the two year COVID lockdown. Though she still resides in Hawaii where she has acted, directed, taught and scuba dived, she’s currently living near Philadelphia to help her 92 year old mom shop at Kohl’s with her 30% off coupons. For the record, Lisa and I have been friends for more years than either of us will admit, having met while we were both in drama school at the University of Southern California. So for all those reasons and many more, it’s a great joy for me to welcome my good friend, the extraordinarily multi talented Lisa Barnes, to StoryBeat today. Lisa, welcome to the show.

Lisa Barnes: Thank you so much, Steve. That was so lovely. And we only just graduated in 2003. Uh, right.

Steve Cuden: Was it that long ago?

Lisa Barnes: Yeah, I know it seems. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve Cuden: Um, it might be a couple of years more than that, but we’re not gonna let on, so. All right, so let’s go back in time, actually back in time for you and look at your history just a little bit. You’ve been at the acting game for a while now, and I’m just wondering, at what age were you? How old were you when the bug first bit you?

Lisa Barnes: When I was six and we were living in Ohio and, um, I would watch tv, like the Disney shows, and I could look at the actresses that were my age. And I’d go, I’m not buying what, what they’re doing. I’m just not buying it. I could do better. They weren’t honest and I knew there was something to it, to be, ah, authentic. And, um, so I thought, you know, I’d love to do that someday, but I’m in Ohio, so that’ll never happen. And then we moved to California where my dad was interview. He was the agent for O.J. Simpson. And, um, O.J. was, he was just starting out, had just graduated from UC and my dad said, you’ve got to be an actor to have a, a career after this. And so OJ Was on an episode of Medical center, and I remember watching it with my dad, and I was 12, and I was like, he can’t act.

Steve Cuden: I saw that episode.

Lisa Barnes: Did you? I saw that medical center, remember?

Steve Cuden: I do.

Lisa Barnes: And, um, my dad said, well, you’re going to tell him how great he is. So anyway, um, that’s kind of where I just knew. And then I started in high school, and when I was 14, I started taking a drama class because I wanted to be interesting so and so, uh, but I really got into being able to express some of the sadness I was going through at that time. And I actually wrote in high school and I did, uh, the festivals and all that, and I loved it so much. Um, and it was like, it became church to me right then.

Steve Cuden: Church. So you felt like at that point it was a calling for you?

Lisa Barnes: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And nobody else did. I mean, I played like one role, the drunk actress. And you can’t take it with you in high school. And then I did Oklahoma, and, you know, I saw Pacific Background, you know, but that was it. And I insisted on studying and just becoming an actor. Going to New York.

Steve Cuden: Were you a theater junkie? Were you a movie junkie? Well, how did you. Theater, theater, theater. And so who did you admire then? Who did you look up to and say, wow, that is a really spectacular actress or actor. And I’d like to have a career like they have.

Lisa Barnes: Well, you know, I remember, uh, not that in a million years I could have, but Julie Andrews was on a television show and she was talking about how every day she does a voice class and a dance class. And I thought, oh, that’s exhausting. I could never do anything like that. And then as I got older, because she was so wonderful and she was my idol when I was little. But it was honestly the kids at my high school, the drama department was written up in Variety because their shows were so good and Fiddler on the Roof and David and Lisa and Comings and Goings and it just blew my mind.

Steve Cuden: And so when you were in high school, you were really going at it.

Lisa Barnes: Yeah.

Steve Cuden: You also have had a lot of training. Obviously you went to school at USC and all. You did Stella Adler and all that. I assume you’ve done other training as well. Yes.

Lisa Barnes: Oh, yeah. Um, yeah, throughout the years, so many. And that’s, uh, it’s. I think it’s so important to find your, uh. To find something that speaks to you. And I’d studied with other people besides Stella who didn’t think I had anything. And so. But I worked with Stella and she was incredibly supportive. And she’s very much into imagination, using your imagination and also your background. So you put you marry the two together and she’t didn’t believe and like groveling on the floor and remembering when your dog died, uh, she’d say, it’s in you. You have that. Just do the work and use your imagination.

Steve Cuden: You’re not sense memory.

Lisa Barnes: No, she. She and Meisner were more about imagination and listening and responding to who’s in the room instead of feeling so much.

Steve Cuden: So what did you get out of USC then that you then took forward and grew from that into Stella Adler?

Lisa Barnes: I was really lucky to be in a bunch of plays there with really good directors like, um. Oh, come on, Louis. Pa. Oh, yes, Louis. Um, Jack Bender directed us and Moon Children, and he was exceptional as a director and he does television, uh, now, but. And then working with, um, John Reich, a different type of acting. He would teach us from the outside in. So you’re physically doing things and it gets your emotional life going. And so, uh, Stella was more. You get something going in you because you’ve had an experience and then you use the imagination of the character. Um, for an example, real quick, um, I was called in to audition for Hawaii Five-O, like that day, and they said the part is the mother has. Her daughter has just Been murdered by the boyfriend with a gun, and she’s talking about what happened. And I don’t have a daughter, and I don’t know anyone who’s been murdered by a gun. But, uh, I have other things. I could use my imagination to get to that point, because she wanted. They wanted tears, and I was in the waiting room for three hours crying. Goodness. I tried to keep it going, and I got the part. But, uh, you know, it’s using your imagination so that it’s not like, how am I feeling? How am I feeling? It was, how is that character who is like me, um, feeling and what she went through and creating the little story that, as Stella would say and Nina Fauh would say, who taught us at usc. What would warm you? What warms you about something or someone, you know, um, which makes you connect.

Steve Cuden: So you have taken bits and pieces of all this and made that your. For lack of a better word, acting style or acting technique?

Lisa Barnes: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Cuden: Was there some point along the way when you woke up and realized, you know what? I am actually pretty good at this. I can do this?

Lisa Barnes: I think it was probably, um, um, maybe two years ago. It’s, you know, there’s always doubt, you know, always doubt.

Steve Cuden: But doubt is good for art, I think. So Artists want to have summed doubt if they’re sure of themselves sometimes. Then it just becomes, you know, uninteresting.

Lisa Barnes: Right. And I think you stretch yourself. The more doubt you have, the more you have to be prepared and really be solid.

Steve Cuden: So what do you do then to keep up your acting chops? Do you do a lot of memorization? Do you do scene work? What do you do to regularly develop your craft?

Lisa Barnes: I do, um. I’ll do, like, during the pandemic, I did a lot of, uh, readings. I’m in a group that reads Shakespeare. Once a month, we do a group of Shakespeare readings. It’s more things on Zoom now, just to keep things fresh. I also. I don’t know if you want to get into this, but I was teaching Acting for Camera in Hawaii, and I found that to be such a fantastic thing for theater actors, because you have to be honest. You can’t fake anything. And a lot of times when you’re doing theater, you, of course, have to magnify so the audience can get it. But if you don’t have the kernel of truth in there, it sometimes leaves you cold. And I found that Acting for Camera taught me and does teach my students to know that they are enough and what they experience is enough. Uh, what they’re experiencing. The camera wants to see it. And the camera is going to come up like that.

Steve Cuden: The technique is completely different from stage.

Lisa Barnes: Completely different.

Steve Cuden: And you have to bring it all the way down, don’t you?

Lisa Barnes: All the way down. But it doesn’t mean that you are less. And it took me so long to learn that, Steve. And that’s why I teach it, because it’s sort of like, don’t do what Lisa Barnes did. Here’s the tricks to like being a good film actor.

Steve Cuden: Well, that’s what makes a good teacher good, I think, is that you have the experience to teach. This is the way it actually works.

Lisa Barnes: Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Steve Cuden: Do you enjoy teaching?

Lisa Barnes: I do. Except that, um, when I moved to Pennsylvania, I was teaching some online and I found more actor curious people. So it was like they didn’t want to read the plays, they didn’t want to memorize. They wanted to be influencers or, uh, famous. And for me, like I said, it’s about the writing. It’s the words, it’s the.

Steve Cuden: Well, it usually is. For someone that’s acting in plays, it’s all about the words.

Lisa Barnes: Absolutely.

Steve Cuden: And how you get that interpretation. When you say acting curious, you mean wann toe?

Lisa Barnes: Yeah, like, well, let’s see how this goes. I think I’d make it. I’d like to do extra work and then be the lead in the next film I look, you know.

Steve Cuden: So in other words, they’re not serious about being actors yet.

Lisa Barnes: Not yet. And so I would, you know, I’d talk about, uh, different, like the plays. Breaking down a play. There’s a. There’s a teacher, Larry Moss. You know Larry.

Steve Cuden: I know who Larry Moss is.

Lisa Barnes: Oh, gosh, she’s wonderful. And I sometimes will, um, audit his classes just because he’s so. He’s so in love with the words and the language. And why is Biff named Biff? And why is Hap name Hap? And what does that have to say about the whole thing of Death of a Salesman? And, um, he just gets into the meat. It’s like a. It’s like, it’every. Play is like a fine dining experience with him. And that’s what I love about it so much, is going into the details of all these characters. I love that so much.

Steve Cuden: So if you’re going to cook a fine meal, that takes time and effort and energy, doesn’t it?

Lisa Barnes: It does indeed.

Steve Cuden: And you have to have the right ingredients, too.

Lisa Barnes: Yes, absolutely.

Steve Cuden: So what would you say is the importance then of young actors in particular having training and then Continuing that training throughout a career. Is that super important, do you think?

Lisa Barnes: I think it’s really important. Um, and I, you know, I reached out to a couple of my young, uh, friends to find out that one has gone to Tish and the other one went to Northwestern to find out if they’re getting that kind of training there. And of course they are. And they also love theater like I do, but especially the voice. I think for years my voice was a little like I spoke up here because I was nice and I was from la and you talk like this and I actually it was Jim Wilson at USC who just said, Ms. Bond, your voices down here. And, um, so I was able to like, wow, what a wake up call.

Steve Cuden: And you then suddenly became John Houseman.

Lisa Barnes: I did. Oh my God, Houseman. I loved him so much. So he would come to, he would come to New York. When I graduated from SC, I didn’t even know New York was an island. I knew nothing about it. I knew one person there and I went out and, and I, you know, uh, got my two roommates and we lived in Chelsea. And Houseman would come to town and he would call my house and he’d go, Ms. Barnes, it’s John. Are you fat or thin? Uh, and it was like kind of. That’s why I left la, because I couldn’t really regulate my weight. I thought maybe if I just go to New York, they’ll, they’ll like me for my talent.

Steve Cuden: And you have to walk all the time.

Lisa Barnes: Ah. And you have to walk and so you’ll be thin anyway.

Steve Cuden: Well, let’s talk about your process of being an actor. An actress. You prefer the term actor or actress?

Lisa Barnes: It doesn’t matter.

Steve Cuden: Doesn’t matter.

Lisa Barnes: Um, like when I told my father I wanted to be an actress, he’s thinking Lola Falana, you know what I mean? And doing in Vegas. And so it had kind of this connotation of not an art form, you know.

Steve Cuden: Well, some people think that it’s a low art. When I disagree heartily, I think it’s a very high art. So when you begin to work on a role and aside from reading a script, you got the gig, what is your first approach? How do you start to develop your character? Besides reading the script? What’s your first thing?

Lisa Barnes: I want to see where it connects with me. Like what can I relate to in this character that, uh, I can tell their story and get it, get them in my soul. What is it about them? Are they somebody that is, uh, frustrated with their love affair? They want to move on. And it’s something that I can relate to. And I can relate to a lot of things. Steve having graduated in 2003. Um, so it’s easy for me now. It’s so funny. It was just saying this to somebody the other day for me to just, like, read something and find something in almost everything I read what I can relate to and that character then build from there. And as soon as I got really good at that, it became harder to memorize.

Steve Cuden: Why do you think that is?

Lisa Barnes: Because I got older. And I think the older you get and the more experience you get, the. And more experience you have with life, you can call in, like having your heart broke and losing a dog, losing love. Being, uh, extremely joyful and positive in the world where people think you’re crazy because you seem like a lunatic. Uh, so I can relate to just about anybody. And, um, so that’s where I start. Where’s the kernel of that character?

Steve Cuden: So you have to find something in a role that is in you.

Lisa Barnes: Yeah, that’s where I start.

Steve Cuden: That’s where you start. Right. So then what becomes the next big challenge for you? Is it memorization? Is it text? What is it?

Lisa Barnes: No’it’s text for. For sure. Looking at that, how so who. Who’s talking about me? What are they saying about me? What is that information? I’m going to get what is being said about my character and then also where they. Where are we? What year are we? What is the dialect? And sometimes the dialect will have a lot of a physical thing that helps me move out El Lisa Barnes to turn into somebody else, which is what I really love doing. I don’t like playing Lisa Barnes and anything. So it’s finding the differences between. So finding what we have in common and finding what’s different.

Steve Cuden: Well, maybe one day somebody will write a part that is Lisa Barnes.

Lisa Barnes: Oh Well, that’d be fine.

Steve Cuden: And you just slide right on and take it.

Lisa Barnes: Take it. Yeah.

Steve Cuden: So, all right, so what are the big challenges to that?

Lisa Barnes: You know, I have this thing where I really want to find a massive truth. It’s a thing that I have like something what’s. What’s about this person that is universal that everyone might be able to relate to. If it’s something physical about them, how am I going to get them to empathize? Even if they’re a bad person? Uh, how am I going to get them to hear this, My. This character’s story? That’s my job is I have to make that person understood for the writer’s uh, sake.

Steve Cuden: So more often than not, I would think, throughout a career like yours, you took a part or you got cast in a role, whether you actually pursued it or not. You went and auditioned for it and you got cast. But it wasn’t something that you spent a lot of time dwelling on, trying to get. You just got cast correct?

Lisa Barnes: Sometimes, yeah. You know, then there were a lot of times where I worked really hard.

Steve Cuden: To really hard at it. So then what was it about those things that you pursued? Was it something that you recognized in the part that was you, or what was it that you pursued? Because I want that part.

Lisa Barnes: Oh, wow, that’s a really good question. I think it was. I saw something in me, and I remember when I auditioned to play Joan La Poussel in Henry VI, Part 1 in the War of Roses, I. I wanted to play. There was a tomboy thing about her. And, um, even though she worshiped Satan, which I didn’t, I could find, like, uh, I could find similarities. But there was a tomboy, and I never really played anything like that before. Somebody who could sword fight and all this. And that was. I was only 26, which means it was like 2003. Um, and I think so, uh, you.

Steve Cuden: Have learned a whole lot in about 20 years.

Lisa Barnes: Yeah. Uh, yeah, but. Yeah, so I, uh, really wanted that role. And it wasn’t anything except that I wanted be. I wanted to be strong, you know, um, in something.

Steve Cuden: So then what for you makes a good role good? Is it that. That some kind of intangible something that just strikes you in your heart, or is there something intellectual about finding it?

Lisa Barnes: I think it’s both. Um, and I think, uh, like, if I’ve never played Martha, um, and who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf? But I would love to play that part.

Steve Cuden: Oh, you’d be killer in that.

Lisa Barnes: Well, she’s just so complicated and. And there’s so many. So many levels of, like, her love and disappointment and fierceness. And, um. So it’s. It’s a mix. It’s a mix.

Steve Cuden: So, uh, you’ve appeared in both dramas and comedies. Do you have a preference for one.

Lisa Barnes: Over the other comedies?

Steve Cuden: Why?

Lisa Barnes: Because they’re harder, and you have to find a truth in them to make them, like not slipping on a banana peel funny, but like a truth that makes what is a universal thing that makes this character humorous. So I do this. I don’t know if I should bring this up, but I do this thing. I don’t know if I told you about it or sent you anything called Barnes looks at Barnes.

Steve Cuden: I’ve seen many Barnes look at Barnes episodes and frequently there’s some kind of a piece of straw or a, um, broom handle or whatever that you’re using as a microphone. Yes, I know.

Lisa Barnes: Yes. It’s not a rode microphone. It came up a couple years ago when, uh, my husband and I were traveling around Northern California. And he’s a photographer, and so he’s constantly taking pictures and constantly getting, you know, his art out. And I was just like drooling in the front seat of the car and he goes, uh, we see a bar. I said, wow, that’s beautiful. He goes, you know, you should do a series. Barnes looks at Barnes. I went, stop the car. And we got out and I found a feather and did this thing. And it’s just a, it got to a point though, where I started to do, um, a little bit of, like, political stuff in there, but’it’s just playing different kind of geeky people that, without a lot of thought or great accent work, just like, it’s just like, it’s just this person, personality who stops at Barnes and makes a commentary about what’s going on in life.

Steve Cuden: Well, it’s a little daffy and very funny.

Lisa Barnes: Good. Uh, o. I’m glad you like it.

Steve Cuden: If anybody’s curious, if the listeners are curious, go search.

Lisa Barnes: Barnes looks at Barnes.

Steve Cuden: Barnes looks at Barnes. Right?

Lisa Barnes: Yeah, yeah.

Steve Cuden: Do you approach comedy differently than drama when you prepare?

Lisa Barnes: No, because it’s both so serious, you know, it’s serious stuff.

Steve Cuden: You have to play it like it’s a drama, even though it’s going to wind up being funny.

Lisa Barnes: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve Cuden: And are you thrown by laughter then, or is that just a wonderful.

Lisa Barnes: Oh, no, that’s what you want. And that’s, that’s another thing that one of the things I learned at USC and also I studied at the Pacific Conservatory of the Performing Arts is. And also Humboldt State, of all places, the number one pot selling and smoking place in the world. Um, and in each of those schools, I learned to feel, to read the audience, which is a talent. Right, Steve? It’s. You got to know, you got to know what’s going on. They’re coughing, they’re moving, they’re laughing, they’re crying. And that’s going on in the background of all the other stuff you’ve got going on. So you’re working with the audience and the other actors in this kind of spiritual thing. For me, you know, it’s, it’s great.

Steve Cuden: Are you able to keep those distractions out of your Performance sometimes.

Lisa Barnes: Except I have to tell you. Can I tell you a story, please? So I was doing. Now, I did equisite USC, right?

Steve Cuden: I remember I lit it.

Lisa Barnes: I remember you lit it. And you lit it beautifully. Thank God.

Steve Cuden: And I never saw it. That was a show that I came in, and I set it up overnight one night, and then I was operating another show in the Bing Theater, and I never saw a single performance of it.

Lisa Barnes: Wow. Wow. Um. Well, uh, you know, ah, a USC was my dad’s alma mater. And we were going to a USC UCLA football game with some of his friends, and we were at the Hilton Hotel, They having lunch. And I turn to my dad and I say, dad, I just got this, you know, lead in a show at USC. And he’s going, that’s great. Hey, I’d like to make a toast to my daughter. She just got the lead. And what’s the show? Equis. Equas. Well, Lisa, that’s fantastic. You know what we’re gonna do? We’re all gonna come opening night. We’re gonna have a party. We’re gonna go back to our house and party some more. I’m just so proud of you. Great. Cheers. Le. He said, cheers. I turned to my dad and I said, dad, I have to take all my clothes off. And he looks at me without a beat, and he goes, lis, whatever happened to Oklahoma? So that was in, like, gear.

Steve Cuden: Did you tell him that’s where the wind comes sweeping down the plains?

Lisa Barnes: He would have loved you. Um, so then in, uh, 1980 something, I did it again at a place called Pennsylvania Stage Company in Allentown.

Steve Cuden: Wow.

Lisa Barnes: And it was a professional production. And then there one night, playing opposite guy from Carnegie Mellon, a, uh, wonderful actor, Jeffrey Marcus. And he’s playing the boy. And I’m facing the audience, and I take off my top, and there’s nothing there, you know? And this guy in the audience goes, good night. Like that. I mean, loud. And everybody kind of ha. And I’m facing the audience and him, the kid, and he’s looking at me like. Like he can’t. He’s laughing. And I’m like, very serious. You know, what’s matter? It don’t you want to. And, you know, it was, uh. That was one of those times where you just have to keep it together.

Steve Cuden: You just got to keep forging forward because it’s happening and it’s alive.

Lisa Barnes: Yeah.

Steve Cuden: Right.

Lisa Barnes: Yep.

Steve Cuden: So are there differences, then, in the way that you approach a known role, a part that’s in a play? That people know versus something that you’re breaking for the first time ever. It’s a brand new play.

Lisa Barnes: Oh, uh, that’s such a good question. I try really hard to never. Well, if I’ve never seen the play, I don’t see the play. And I don’t look up online what people have done, because I don’t think that’s, uh.

Steve Cuden: But what if you’ve already seen it?

Lisa Barnes: What if, you know, if I have seen it, then I just. It’s like I have to go into this other kind of realm that has happened. And I’m trying to think where it has happened. I just go into another, like, um. It’s like a different side of the brain, as if it’s a brand new script and I’ve never seen it before.

Steve Cuden: You have to treat it just like it’s. You’ve never heard of it before, Right, Exactly. So every part is a new part to you?

Lisa Barnes: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Steve Cuden: Have you ever played a part again? Well, you did it Necklace. You’ve played that part twice. Did you find new things the second time?

Lisa Barnes: Oh, yes. And I also played Nina twice. I did Nina at the Edinburgh Festival with usc. With Casey, actually. And then, uh, I did it in Los Angeles, and that’s another good story. Opening night, we moved it to a big bigger theater, a bigger venue, because it was going quite well and I was playing Nina, and opening night I was helping to produce it. So I knew the LA Times was coming and Dramaologue was coming and the LA Weekly was coming. And, um, I was driving in Santa Monica with a friend who had the convertible down, and there were all these police all around. And all of a sudden, he’s at a stop sign. He puts up his hands and he goes, I don’t know about you, but every time you see a bunch of cops, I just go, sorry, officer, I’m guilty. Like, uh, this. Well, that was a real bad idea. So the cops come and they pull us over, and they’re like. I’m like, what happened? And we’re at the side of the road, and guy gets on a megaphone. Put your hands up. And we’re on Santa Monica Boulevard in 20th Street.

Steve Cuden: Oh, my goodness.

Lisa Barnes: And traffic has stopped in both directions. It’s the only time I’ve stopped traffic, Steve. So. And then he goes, put your hands up. The girl, too. So I put my hands up. I’m like, what happened? And they go, the girl get out of the car. So I open the door from the inside to get out of the Car. And they scream, the girl, girl. Open from the outside. And then they actually, they kind of arrest me for armed robbery, basically.

Steve Cuden: What?

Lisa Barnes: And I’m opening that night in the Seagull at this new venue where all the critics are coming. And I’m playing Nina. And so in my head, it’s sort of like what you were asking me for. Do you get distracted? So in my head I’m thinking as, uh, it back up, get on your knees. This cop, I looked at these cops. There were eight cops with guns pointed at me. And they were terrified.

Steve Cuden: They were terrified.

Lisa Barnes: They were terrified. And I’m like, this is such an inconvenience. And so I get on my knees and they handcuffed me. But I’m thinking in the same time, I’m like, you know, I’ve been studying a little Buddhism and be the one who’s going toa save the sinking ship. These guys are panicking, so they handcuffed me. And I say, what did I do? The guy goes, shut up and get in the car. And then they put me in the car. And this other cop comes over and he’s like, are you okay? Do you need the air conditioning on? I said, no, I’m fine. But how long is this going to take? I’m opening in a play tonight. Who cares, right? So anyway, they said, you know, I’m not guilty. I get to the theater, it’s 5:00, and the director says, I come in. I go, my God, it was just picked up for armed robbery. I had eight guns pointed at me. And the director goes, lisa, uh, drink. Warren left his shoes in Pasadena. We’ve got to go to Goodwill.

Steve Cuden: So that was much more important as missing shoes.

Lisa Barnes: Yeah. Right.

Steve Cuden: Than the fact that you might have been missing entirely.

Lisa Barnes: Entirely, yeah. So it that’s your question? Yeah, I think you get better as you get older and you, you know, you dream about those characters.

Steve Cuden: Well, I certainly hope you get better as you get older.

Lisa Barnes: Yeah.

Steve Cuden: It would be kind of silly if you didn’t or you really weren’t into it. You know, anybody that cares is get it gets better over time. That’s just, I think that’s nature. Um, once you’ve opened a show and you’re in a run of a show, what do you do to continue to keep it fresh?

Lisa Barnes: It’s such a good question and it’s so important. You think everybody in the audience deserves to have the best show ever. So do not scrimp. You know, don’t, don’t hold back. Just. This is a new show. Every day. And it also makes it more fun because you’reare. Gives you more to do because you’re playing more, because you.

Steve Cuden: Are you looking to learn as you’re going?

Lisa Barnes: Sometimes, yeah, but kind of it’s almost like you know the lines, you know everything, you know where you’re headed with it, but you’re able to like kind of be in the moment and uh, ride the waves. It’s like surfing, really. It’s, you know, you just you don’t have to think about how do I look or what’s this. It’s like I look at your eyes and what you’re doing to me and what you’re saying to me and is it working today? And if it’s not, then I adjust. But every audience member deserves the best performance you can give.

Steve Cuden: Well, and they’re seeing it for the first time mostly. Sometimes people are seeing it multiple times. Most people are seeing it for the first time and they’re seeing each one of those people in a live performance are seeing a unique performance that will never be replicated.

Lisa Barnes: Exactly.

Steve Cuden: It’s not like a movie where it gets exactly replicated every time. These people are seeing something that’s very different in certain ways every single time you perform it.

Lisa Barnes: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Cuden: So I want to talk to you about directors and directing because you’ve done, you’ve worked for directors and you’ve also directed your own Things. What would you say are the most important lessons you’ve taken away from working with your favorite directors?

Lisa Barnes: Oh, kindness, kindness, kindness. I swear there are people out there that are crazy. I did this episode. I won’t say what it was because he’s probably listening. But no, he’s not. I don’t even know if he’s still alive because this was before 2003.

Steve Cuden: No names are necessary. Oh you were just a baby.

Lisa Barnes: I was just a baby. But he, um, he was screaming. And this is in the year. It was 1990s. So it’s when one scene would take, uh, all day long to shoot because you had so many different angles, you had tons of crew, you had this and that. And I played an undercover waitress. And a guy was hired that morning to play an undercover, a bus boy. And this director treated that guy so badly. And I’ve seen this IND directors, sometimes they will just have a whipping boy in the show. That uh, is a way that they let out their own anxiety. Um, and it was really hard. And at one point he said to me, had I was giving an actress her dinner and we had to go back to one, and she’d taken a bite out of this salmon or whatever. He screamed, fix the salmon to me. And I went, it’s not my job. And after the thing was over, I thanked him for hiring me. And he said, you’re a very good professional. And, uh, thank you. You did a great job.

Steve Cuden: Wow.

Lisa Barnes: So. But, you know, that was. He was just, you.

Steve Cuden: There’s no need for it.

Lisa Barnes: There’s no need for it. And if you. The best way you get anything out of a student or an actor is to let them know. They know what they’re doing, give them that confidence. And if they’re going offline or if they’re going into a different realm that isn’t working for the show. Find what. What works. Say, I’m seeing what this is doing, and I think where you’re headed so that you’re making the actor feel like they’re a collaborative person, not that you’re judging them.

Steve Cuden: Well, it is a collaboration.

Lisa Barnes: It is. But a lot of directors, um, not a lot. I don’t know. I think. And this is another. To Steve. I think that I’ve noticed throughout the 30 years that I’ve been doing. 30, 40 years. I’ve been doing this since 2003. 2003. Is that, uh, also actors. The actors used to get away with being really rakes, you know, to work with, and not anymore. People don’t want to put up with it because we don’t need that. You don’t need that in a way.

Steve Cuden: Well, society has pushed a lot of that toward people taking possession of their own being and not being pushed around by other people.

Lisa Barnes: Exactly. Exactly.

Steve Cuden: Is there anything you do now differently in working with directors than when you started out? Do you approach the act of working with a director differently?

Lisa Barnes: You know, what I think I do more now is I. And this is a huge thing for anyone getting started or even in the process of acting. I don’t look for approval. I don’t put that on them. It’s a big, big thing. And I think, you know, actors are children, and we need to be. There is that side where we need to know that mom and dad think we’re doing well. And I think it’s a burden on the director. I know what is. And so I tried to do just do my job. Um, I love. I love talking to directors so much, but I don’t. I’m not needy like I was.

Steve Cuden: I think when you first started out, you needed that approval in order to. O God, Steve, give yourself a sense that you were in the right direction.

Lisa Barnes: Absolutely. Well, when your dad thinks that you’re going into a career because you want to be a stripper in Las Vegas, and you’re like, what?

Steve Cuden: But when you’re in rehearsal, which is more likely to be something you’re dealing with in a play than in a television show, where you get limited, if any, rehearsal.

Lisa Barnes: Right, right, right.

Steve Cuden: So you just walk in there, they’ve cast you for who you are and what you’re able to do. And you better come in and know your part and hit your marks and, and move along, because nobody’s really going to rehearse real hard with you. But in a play, you’re going to rehearse for weeks, usually. Um, um. What is it you’re looking for in a rehearsal period? What do you want?

Lisa Barnes: I think what I need in the rehearsal period is to work the lines along with the blocking and the relationship. So it’s like many things at once. So it’s a lot. And I really try not to be hard on myself because I’m asking for so many things. I, uh, look at every time I do a role as akin to the way my mother, who is a fine artist, who was a fashion illlustrator and had to become a medical illustrator when she turned 50, and she is one of the top medical illustrators in the world and works for the top surgeon. She taught herself and she taught it. She’s colon rectal. There are a lot of jokes there. But she’s colon rectal and she didn’t know anything about any of this. And so she did her own homework and she talked to the doctor. And a lot of the times the doctor didn’t have any time to help her through things. But it’s like she gets into this, like, this world so she can understand every aspect of it and make sure she’s drawing specifically. So that’s. I mean, this is rehearsal for me. It’s like bat your head, patting your stomach, tripping over your shoes. That’s me. I’m a total mess.

Steve Cuden: You have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Lisa Barnes: Exactly. Yeah.

Steve Cuden: And part of the problem is you may not know what you’re doing for a while.

Lisa Barnes: Yes, yes.

Steve Cuden: So you that’s why you’re rehearsing. You’re trying to figure it out.

Lisa Barnes: Right. And then. And also figure out which technique is going to help me more with this role. Is it more outside in or inside out?

Steve Cuden: For the listeners who don’t know, explain that.

Lisa Barnes: Okay. Inside out, uh, real fast was, uh, Inside, I was coming from your emotional reality, like, uh, I’ve lost my son. And so how does that affect me? How does that affect my lines? How does it aff. Affect my relationship to the people in the room? Um, if I’m playing somebody, uh, who, ah, has a tick, um, how does that affect the way I relate to people? And it makes my need to communicate more. So doing this, when somebody has a tick and they can’t and they stammer, they need to communicate, and it makes their. They re getting over a conflict within themselves. And sometimes that’s a really helpful thing to do. Find something physical that helps you m. Make it another character, not you. So.

Steve Cuden: Well, a, uh. Lot of directors like to stage things in a way that gives actors physical things to do.

Lisa Barnes: Right, Right. And that’s kind of nice.

Steve Cuden: And in a way, it takes the onus off of the actor having to come up with everything themselves. And you’re not just saying the words. You actually are doing something Right.

Lisa Barnes: Right.

Steve Cuden: I think that’s really important for actors is that they’re. That they have some sense of what it is they’re doing in space.

Lisa Barnes: Oh, absolutely. And, you know, and two things about that. One is, I love table work where you just sit down and you read the play and you read the scenes and you talk about it and you talk about your own experiences. Um, I find that really helps actors anchor, uh, to characters. I did a show up in Maine where we did that, uh, Dinner with Friends, fabulous play. And we would just sit around talking about our relationships, then read. And I think we didn’t start blocking to, like, week three. Um, so it’s one way to do it. When you’re talking and you’re talking about emotional things and psychological and.

Steve Cuden: Do you think that. That talking and talking before you got to blocking was helpful?

Lisa Barnes: Yeah, because I had more of an idea who I was in the room. Like, uh, am I frightened? Am I a frightened person? Am I skittish? Am I, uh. Am I hyper? Am I manic? A little manic, a little upset, a little concerned my marriage might be on the line. But also working with John Reich at usc, and he would say, just step, step, step. Say the line like this. I’m so. I’m sorry, Daddy. Like this. And then he would say things. Have you ever noticed that when somebody’s lying, their pitch gets higher? I love you, Daddy. Or, um, I won’t be a bad girl. It’s like. They’re like, I won’t be a bad girl. You know, it was kind of interesting So I learned some real interesting. Physically and vocally through him.

Steve Cuden: Do you think that part of that is that you’re actually socializing with the other actors? So now you’re really getting to know them too?

Lisa Barnes: Yes. Yeah. And that’s really great. It’s just great because then you start.

Steve Cuden: To act as an ensemble.

Lisa Barnes: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know each other and you trust each other and you realize that everybody’s in the, you know, everybody’s got your back.

Steve Cuden: Can you share any experiences in which you were really struggling to figure something out and you weren’t sure how to handle the notes that you were getting and it was just not working. What did you do? Maybe you disagreed totally with the notes. How did you handle that? What do you do?

Lisa Barnes: So this was, this was a life changing experience I had at USC working with Jack Bender in Moon Children. I played Shelly. And Shelly’s a little like, you know, half of her brain is missing. She’s just a little, huh. Ditzy. And, uh, I couldn’t find her. I was doing this thing where she was kind of cutesy, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t real and it didn’t, um, work for me and Jack. Instead of like saying it’s not working, he’d come up and he’d start. He would just lean over and I’d lean over with him and we’d both just start just looking at each other and he’d go, hand him a flower when you get to that door. Okay, so. And then I say, my first line, is Norman here? So I give him this flower in this weird timing way and say, is Norman there? And all of a sudden I found that Shelley is kind of living in Quicksand. And it really gave me a physical thing and a voice thing and a real thing. And he was very nice about it. Jack. And you know, that’s back in the days when you’re at USC and people are having. The people from the coast are coming to see the show. So good luck tonight. Uh, you’re gonna have a career. It was one of those kinds of shows  because he knew a lot of people. But I just felt so, oh, blessed to be in that piece. And that was like, you know, a thousand years ago, but it taught me a lot and it changed my life.

Steve Cuden: You need to have that and other experiences like that as, uh, stepping stones along the way. What I think of as epiphanies you’re having an epiphany about. It’s not what I’ve been doing or how I’ve Been doing it. Wait a minute. It’s something else. It’s this, right? It’s a big deal for. For in the arts, isn’t it?

Lisa Barnes: It’s huge. And it’s also. And it’s something that’s truthful as well. That’s what I mean about it. I’m not doing a caricature before I was.

Steve Cuden: And so you’ve also done a whole bunch of directing and. Or a certain amount of directing. And. And do you enjoy it? Do you find it very challenging? You. Is it easy for you?

Lisa Barnes: I. I love it. Um. Um. I’m more of like a, you know, kitchen sink drama kind of director.

Steve Cuden: What does that mean?

Lisa Barnes: It just kind of. I like, uh, psychology. The psychology in the simple, simple play. I like, you know, I like Odette and I like In. And I like the old classics, but also I like, uh. Yeah, I like psychological stuff, like where people. Where you’re dealing with the psychology of the characters.

Steve Cuden: So when you have an actor in a part and you’re directing them and they’re not getting it, what do you do?

Lisa Barnes: Again, I try to, uh. I’ll go, that isn’t working for you, is it? This is something I learned from Jack Bender, too. This isn’t working for you, is it? And you’re like, no, it’s not, as a matter of fact, you know. And, um. So what can we do? What is it that’s going on? Well, I just feel like it. I’m pushing it too much. Just say the line. Just try saying it. Just say it. Don’t put anything on it. See what that’s. Just see what that’s like. And sometimes that’s all you need to do is say the line. It doesn’t have to have the meat that everything else.

Steve Cuden: David Mamet, whatever you think of David Mamet, he loves to talk about. Actors should say lines uninfected. There should be no inflection.

Lisa Barnes: You know, when we did, um, sexual perversity in Chicago, um, at the Emburgh Festival, we stopped to see American Buffalo at the West End, and we went back to meet the actors afterwards and we said, what did you do? I said, we just ran lines. That’s all we did. We just ran lines. We didn’t do anything else. It was brilliant.

Steve Cuden: Well, that’s his particular approach, is that. I’m sure he doesn’t mean that in performance. But certainly when you’re working the part, you come at it and you memorize it which also leads ee to ask you about memorization, which is a big part of acting.

Lisa Barnes: Oh, God.

Steve Cuden: I assume that at this point, no matter how hard you work at it, you’re actually pretty good at it, that you know how to memorize lines. Do you have a technique or a trick that helps you remember lines?

Lisa Barnes: Um, I have this thing called color Synesthesia. Have you ever heard of it?

Steve Cuden: I have.

Lisa Barnes: So, uh, words have colors.

Steve Cuden: Wow.

Lisa Barnes: So I’m able to. It helps me so much now. I mean, it used to be nothing. And, you know, people go, you do a whole Shakespeare play and they go, how did you learn the lines? And you’d be like, but what about the character? And now it’s like, holy heck. I’m memorizing a five minute monologue for a little thing I’m doing here. And it’s like, my God.

Steve Cuden: Um, you’re seeing the colors in the words.

Lisa Barnes: See the colors in the words. Like, oh, uh, the orange word comes up next, which is now, now, now I’m not seeing D da D. So I’ll remember the line starting with something and the idea starting with that. So that helps also. What am I trying to get across? So I have to know what I’m trying to do and get back. It all has to be in me. And I have to repeat the lines a lot to get them in my mouth so I’m not having to overthink and just be.

Steve Cuden: So there’s a bit of brute force to it. It’s just doing it over and over and over again.

Lisa Barnes: Yep. Yeah, there’s that. That’s part of it.

Steve Cuden: And do you find that that becomes boring after a while or does it get more interesting?

Lisa Barnes: Your voice gets a, um, little hoarse, but it, it can be interesting. It’s more boring. It is. It’s the boring part for me. But, um. And it’s the hardest part for me. Like I said, you finally learn how to make a fabulous character and you can’t learn the words. Um, but I haven’t had a problem with that.

Steve Cuden: So we touched on distractions, like distractions in a live audience, uh, earlier. But I am curious. Motion picture sets. Motion picture and TV sets are notoriously busy, distracting places. And you have to be in it while all this other stuff is going around. And sometimes it’s chaos, sometimes it’s more orderly. But a lot of the times it’s noisy and people are milling around and yelling at each other and all the rest of it. What do you do to eliminate those distractions? So that when you get. When they call action, you’re in it. What do you do?

Lisa Barnes: Okay, so I was in this TV show called Rescue Me. And they were filming a scene where, um, I have a scene with my boyfriend who, uh, has cheated on me. And so. And I also have a scene with another scene before that. So I didn’t get the script until the day I shot it. And I didn’t sleep, uh, or the night before, like midnight. And so I was up all night trying to learn the lines. And the next day they said, we’re going toa shoot you right away. And I was like, trying to remember the words, trying to. And they didn’t shoot until 6:00, so I’m trying to keep the words, but I haven’t slept for a day and a half. And I get on the set and I do the little scene finally. And then we’re in this little house, a little room in the house. There are like 50 guys there doing crew. And I have to walk toward my boyfriend and slap him and crying. So they shot his point of view first. And I’m walking toward him and I’m sobbing. And the director says, lisa, uh, save it. And I said, there’s more where that came from. And it’s only because I knew I was going to be replaced. They kept on giving this guy new girlfriends in the show and I knew somebody else was gonna replace me. And I was so devastated. So I literally stood in the middle of the room while the crew is all running, fussing around, like, holding my hands over my eyes so that I could just get into that moment. You just have to find your own space.

Steve Cuden: You actually physically blocked it out.

Lisa Barnes: I did, yeah.

Steve Cuden: So it wasn’t just a mental block out. It was physical. You actually covered up your eyes and probably covered your ears somewhat, and you just weren’t hearing it and not seeing it right. Hmm, interesting. What is your technique for being what most actors try to achieve all the time, of being in the moment?

Lisa Barnes: Uh. Oh, wow. Oh. Uh, you know, sometimes you just stop and breathe and watch what other people are doing and just take a breath before responding. Because that’s what we do in life, you know. And I find that also to be pretty powerful. But I really strive to be in the moment when I’m in a play. And having somebody who’s there with you that you can trust is. I have worked with people that have decided exactly how they’re going to do the part so they’re not playing with you.

Steve Cuden: And that’s got to be hard.

Lisa Barnes: It’s hard. So I would let. I was supposed to be in love with that character. I let my frustration toward him, the rage I had, come out as passion. So, you know.

Steve Cuden: Well, if that works, if it’s. If it’s what you need for the role.

Lisa Barnes: Yeah, yeah.

Steve Cuden: But it’s about. I think it’s all about taking it from the other performer or performers.

Lisa Barnes: Yeah.

Steve Cuden: And if they’re not giving it to you, boy, that’s really hard.

Lisa Barnes: Then you have to, um, imagine what it is that you’re getting. You have to look at that face and go, it’s like playing somebody like opposite that you just are not attracted to it all. You got to find something, you know?

Steve Cuden: Well, yeah, you gotta find. You have to search for it, don’t you?

Lisa Barnes: Yeah, yeah.

Steve Cuden: And you don’t want to search for it. You really want it to just be there.

Lisa Barnes: It’s fun. But you know what, Steve? I’ve had that happen with playing with two different actors in the same play. One I had an attraction to which made it easy, and the other one I wanted to kill. And people would say that I was better with the one I wanted to kill. So I don’t know, what do I.

Steve Cuden: Well, you were cutting the one that you wanted to hang with, you were cutting him a break or her a break. I don’t know if there’s a him or her, but you were cutting on a break. But the one that you wanted to kill, you were coming at.

Lisa Barnes: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve Cuden: I’ve been having the most fun conversation with Lisa Barnes for a little more than an hour now, and we’re gonna wind the show down a bit. And so I’m just wondering, in all of your experiences, you’ve already told us a ton of really great, funny, wonderful stories and you’ve been around a while and you’ve met people and at least since 2003, we know. Do you have a story that you can share with us that’s either weird, quirky, offbeat strange, or just hilarious?

Lisa Barnes: So I was doing a backers audition. I did Awaken and Sing, I think I may have mentioned to you, probably for 20 years. I started in a production in Los Angeles and it went so well and we had such great actors working with us on it. Orson was in it, Richard Fancy was in it. Um, we ended up, uh. The director loved it so much she wanted to try to move it to Broadway. And I had moved to New York and I had been playing a 24 year old back in the 90s, and here it’s 2003 and here I am playing a 24 year old again. And, uh, so we did a Backers audition, um, at, uh, primary stages for the Schubert for a lot of people. And I played opposite Josh Brolin. Ari Gross was in it, Ed Asner was in it. And it was just so much fun and it was just great. And we would rehearse up, uh, up at the Schubert Organization. They let us use their space. And, uh, Jerry Schoenfeld, who was the president of the Schert Organization, came up to me after the show one night. He said, I’d like to take you down and have you meet Bernadette Peters. And I said, oh, that’d be great. And so we go down there and he introduces us to Bernadette Peters. And he said, uh, and this is Lisa Barnes. Why did you change your name? And I said, oh, I didn’t change my name. He goes, yes, you did. Your name’s Lisa Greenberger. What, are you afraid? Ashamed of your people? And I said, no, honestly, I’m Lisa Barnes. Look at this putam. He goes, I look like a leprechaun. He goes, uh. He goes, well, I don’t know about that. Um, anyway, we had the best time, and I have a lot of stories about him. But, um, one thing was the cl. After we did the Backers audition, we went to this really beautiful romantic restaurant, about 15 of us, and Josh Brolin and I were telling stories and imitating people and imitating. I was imitating somebody in particular, a Broadway actress who has a voice that’s very dissonant. Uh, and the owner of the restaurant came over and told us we had to leave. And I was horrified. I’d never been kicked out of a restaurant before, but, you know, it was with Josh Brolin, so that was fine.

Steve Cuden: Well, that helps us swage it a little bit.

Lisa Barnes: Yeah, it does a little bit.

Steve Cuden: So, last question for you today, Lisa. Uh, you’ve already given us just an enormous amount of advice along the road here, but I’m wondering, do you have a solid piece of advice or a tip that you like to give to those who are starting out in the business or maybe they’re in a little bit and trying to get to the next level?

Lisa Barnes: I’d say, uh, and I tell this all the time, start, uh, take classes. Find people that are really good, even if you’re scared to death. Find the good teachers. Find a community in the classes. And it could be at your school, you know, ah, if you went to SUNY something or usc, find a community and help each other out. That’s one way to Keep a group together. Another thing is to do a lot of student films. Hmm. That’s a really good idea because you just get. You get the experience and you don’t have to make a m mess of yourself during, uh, doing a public, uh, um, professional game.

Steve Cuden: I’ve been doing this show for quite some time, and no one’s ever made that suggestion before. That’s a really good suggestion.

Lisa Barnes: Really good. Really good. Yeah.

Steve Cuden: Yeah. Because you really have an opportunity to not only get some footage of yourself, but also so probably unless they’ve put you in a major starring part of some kind, you’re not going to really get damaged too hard if in fact, you’re not great in it.

Lisa Barnes: No. And it’s such a great experience because they’re learning too. And a lot of times you’re getting like, I did one at Columbia, Columbia thesis. So you had. We had Milos Foreman, was it? Yeah. Milo Foreman was the dean and he worked on a scene. You just never know, uh, especially the university. They really do need actors. I found this in Hawaii. Um, I tell everybody to student films because people there were using their auntie, you know, and it only helps the community get better. If everybody’s using each other and helping each other out, that’s huge.

Steve Cuden: Well, it is huge. And again, going back to what we said earlier, it is a business of collaboration. It’s not a singular business. Your mom is in a business where she works by herself making art. But actors, actresses, directors, producers, writers work alone. But then they have to be able to collaborate with everyone else.

Lisa Barnes: Right.

Steve Cuden: So it is a business of collaboration. So what you’re saying is very, very valuable in that people need to learn to be in that group environment.

Lisa Barnes: Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Cuden: It really works. Lisa Barnes, what a lot of fun to have you on the show today. I’m so pleased and proud to have you on the show. Uh, and thank you so much for spending time with me today.

Lisa Barnes: Oh, God love you. Thank you so much, Steve.

Steve Cuden: And so we’ve come to the end of today’s story. If you like this episode, won’t you please take a moment to give us a comment, rating or review on whatever app or platform you’re listening to Your support helps us bring more great StoryBeat episodes to you. Storybeat is available on all major podcast apps and platforms, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Stitcher, TuneIn, and many others. Until next time, I’m Steve Cuden and may all your stories be unforgettable.