“I think you’ve always got to be prepared to give 100% or more. You’ve got to be prepared that there’s going to be good times and bad times. You’ve got to learn to deal with a lot of rejection. The only other advice I can give is enjoy it. Have fun with it.”

~ Billy J. Kramer

The rock and roll legend, Billy J. Kramer, grew up in Bootle, a Liverpool suburb.  Upon leaving school, he became a trainee engineer by day and an aspiring singer by night, performing under the stage name Billy Kramer. Billy’s performances at local rock clubs around Liverpool soon brought him to the attention of the one and only John Lennon.  John urged Brian Epstein to sign Billy to an exclusive management contract.  Billy jumped at the opportunity to become a full-time entertainer.

Soon after, Billy was summoned to Brian’s office to find John there waiting for him with the suggestion that he add the “J” to his name to give it a “rock and roll edge”.  From that day forward, Billy has been known as Billy J. Kramer.

In March of 1963, Billy was the first person to have a hit record with a Lennon-McCartney song, “Do You Want To Know A Secret,” which was written specially for him by John and Paul and produced by George Martin at Abbey Road Studios even before The Beatles recorded it.

Billy toured extensively throughout the UK as the opening act for The Beatles both before and during Beatlemania.  Billy also headlined tours with such greats as Del Shannon, Gene Pitney, and The Everly Brothers.

Billy’s recordings of the Lennon-McCartney compositions, “Bad To Me” along with “I’ll Keep You Satisfied”, “From A Window”, and “I Call Your Name” all became international million sellers.  He also had a smash hit with the Mort Shuman/John Leslie McFarland song, Little Children.

Released as a double-sided single, Bad To Me and Little Children have the unique distinction of being the highest entry into the Billboard charts at #8.  That accomplishment has never been equalled.

Billy’s appearances on the Ed Sullivan show, Shindig, and Hullaballoo secured his place in rock ‘n roll history.  In 1964, Billy performed as part of the legendary T.A.M.I. show along with such artists as James Brown, Chuck Berry, The Beach Boys, Marvin Gaye, The Supremes, Smokey Robinson, The Rolling Stones and many others.

To commemorate his 50th anniversary in the music business, Billy recorded and released new material entitled “I Won The Fight”.

Billy recently released his autobiography, “Do You Want To Know A Secret.”

Billy continues to record, perform and promote his Storytellers show to international audiences.

Please stick around at the end of the show for a really fantastic treat.  Billy has lent us his brand new Christmas song, “Christmas Kinda Feeling…”

WEBSITES:

• Billy’s autobiography – “Do You Want To Know A Secret.”
• Website: billyjkramermusic.com
• Official YouTube Channel: @BillyJKramerOfficial

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Steve Cuden: On today's Story Beat.

Billy J. Kramer: I think you've always got to be prepared to give 100% or more. You've got to be prepared that there's going to be good times and bad times. You've got to learn to deal with a lot of rejection. The only other advice I can give is enjoy it. Have fun with it.

Steve Cuden: This is Story Beat with Steve Cuden. A podcast for the creative mind. Storybeat explores how masters of creativity develop. And produce brilliant works that people everywhere love and admire. So join us as we discover how talented creators find success in the worlds of imagination and entertainment. Here now is your host, Steve Cuden.

Steve Cuden: Thanks for joining us on Story Beat. We're coming to you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My guest today, the rock and roll legend Billy J. Kramer grew up in Bootle, a Liverpool suburb. Upon leaving school, he became a train engineer by day and an aspiring singer by night, performing under the stage name Billy Kramer. Billy's performances at local rock clubs around Liverpool soon brought him to the attention of the one and only John Lennon. John urged Brian Epstein to sign Billy to an exclusive management contract. Billy jumped at the opportunity to become a full time entertainer. Soon after, Billy was summoned to Brian's office to find John there waiting for him with the suggestion that he add the J to his name to give it a rock and roll edge. From that day forward, Billy has been known as Billy J. Kramer. In March of 1963, Billy was the first person to have a hit record with a Lennon McCartney song, Do youo Want to Know A Secret? Which was written specially for him by John and Paul and produced by George Martin at Abbey Road Studios. Even before the Beatles recorded it, Billy toured extensively throughout the UK as the opening act for the Beatles. Both before and during Beatlemania. Billy also headlined tours with such greats as Del Shannon, Gene Pitney and the Everly Brothers. Billy's recordings of the Lennon McCartney compositions Bad to Me, along with I'll Keep youp Satisfied From A Window and I Call youl Name all became international million sellers. He also had a smash hit with the Mort schumann John Leslie McFarlane song Little Children. Released as a double sided single, Bad to Me and Little Children have the unique distinction of being the highest entry into the Billboard charts at number eight. That accomplishment has never been equaled. Billy's appearances on the Ed Sullivan Show, Shindig and Hullabaloo secured his place in rock and roll history. In 1964, Billy performed as part of the legendary Tammy show along with such artists as James Brown, Chuck Berry, the Beach Boys, Marvin Gaye, the Supremes, Smokey Robinson, the Rolling Stones, and many others. To commemorate his 50th anniversary in the music business, Billy recorded and released new material entitled I Won the Fight. Billy recently released his autobiography, do youo Want to Know a Secret? Billy continues to record, perform and promote his Storytellers show to international audiences. Won't you please stick around at the end of the show for a really fantastic treat? Billy has lent us his brand new Christmas song, Christmas Kind of Feeling. So for all those reasons and many more, I'm beyond honored and thrilled to welcome the great Billy J. Kramer to Story Beat today. Billy, thanks so very much for joining me.

Billy J. Kramer: My pleasure. Steve, good to see you. Good to hear you.

Steve Cuden: Well, thank you very much. So let's go back to your very earliest roots. We mentioned it a little bit in your bio, but you've been singing and performing for quite a long time. At this point. How old were you? At what point did you notice you had singing ability?

Billy J. Kramer: I was in the school choir. I wasn't expecting to hear that. What happened was the music teacher started playing a song and got us all singing and then he ran around the classroom going, you're in your. And you're. And, and you know, that was it. I, I was in the choir and I never wanted to sing solo. I was a shy kid. But I joined the choir and we, started doing festivals like in Farming, Outside of Liverpool, South Fork, Blackpool and things like that.

Steve Cuden: And and so from that you had a, I guess a, an inkling that you had some talent and ability. And so how long was it before you tried to then take that to the, to the, the clubs and so on where people could hear you perform?

Billy J. Kramer: It was quite a while, you know, I mean, m. I was a kid then and I, I started rehearsing in a club in Bootle called the Oliver Club and hooked up with a neighborhood friend. he was learning the guitar, I was learning the guitar. And from each of his last side, we'd pass it on to each other. And we started, playing in his parlor. at the time skiffle was very popular.

Steve Cuden: Skiffle, big stuff.

Billy J. Kramer: We started off playing the skiffle one. Lonnie, ah, Donnican was very popular.

Steve Cuden: Well, the Beatles, Lennon and McCartney were skiffle musicians as well.

Billy J. Kramer: Yes, I think everybody was, you know, because it was not long after World War II. It was a cheap way of kids putting a band together. You know, all you needed was like a teacher, broom handle and cord, a washboard, cymbals that kind of stuff. So that's how it really started. And then it went on to rock and roll, you know, I mean, and that came about because most kids were listening to Radio Luxembourg on a Sunday night.

Steve Cuden: you started out also playing the guitar, is that right?

Billy J. Kramer: I started off playing the guitar and I formed a band with my friends, school friends and neighborhood friends. And we started to rehearse in a legion hall close by called the Odva Club. And the secretary of the club came up to me one day and says, you know, you're using all this electricity and everything, so you got to pay us back some way. And you have to do a, a show on a Saturday night really. So it was, there was never anybody in the club, but we started playing on Saturday nights. We had different singers. I wasn't interested if we had a singer. I wanted to play guitar and that was the end of it. And but we started to get popular locally and there was always a line on the Saturday night and the place was packed out.

Steve Cuden: And you had, you had no formal training as a singer?

Billy J. Kramer: I had no training. I, I wasn't, I was a bit self conscious, to tell you the truth.

Steve Cuden: Why?

Billy J. Kramer: Well, because I always thought that I was overweight and I didn't think I was, that I didn't think I was good. Look how I didn't think I was, the right kind of.

Steve Cuden: Well, eventually you had, you had women screaming at you later.

Billy J. Kramer: Yeah, I mean, that surprised me, you know, but, that's how that started.

Steve Cuden: So you were fortunate in that you were in. And correct me if I have the geography wrong, but Liverpool and Bootle were in Merseyside. Is that correct?

Billy J. Kramer: That's correct, yes.

Steve Cuden: Okay, so. And at that time, correct me again if I'm wrong, there were a whole, not just the Beatles, but a whole lot of musicians and rock and roll players.

Billy J. Kramer: Oh yeah, there was a lot of bands. It was like the Searchers, King Size Tale, the Dominoes, France, Flamingos, the Foremost. There was hundreds of groups.

Steve Cuden: Were they. Were you pushing one another to, to get better and improve? Was it a kind of like a.

Billy J. Kramer: Competitive thing in the beginning? It's strange because everybody, you know, was doing the old thing. There were some people were doing covers and getting tunes that were not familiar, but changing the arrangement, turning songs into rock and roll, if there was any trying to compete, I think it was in a, in a nice way. It wasn't. There was no nastiness about it, but there was the.

Steve Cuden: I guess it was in the air that People were starting to play rock and roll music and rhythm and blues was an influence. But the Merseyside musicians were influencing one another, don't you think?

Billy J. Kramer: Oh, I think so, definitely. I always thought the great thing about the Beatles was the selection of cover songs was very unique. There were songs that weren't, you know, played by every. Anybody else.

Steve Cuden: Right. Well, but they also were very great, a great band in the sense that they could play almost anything. And they did play many different things.

Billy J. Kramer: The covers were amazing.

Steve Cuden: Oh, truly amazing.

Billy J. Kramer: They're truly amazing. And there were songs we'd never heard before.

Steve Cuden: Do you have other musical interests beside rock and roll and which you came from? Do you also listen or want, to play other kinds of music?

Billy J. Kramer: At that time I was mostly focused on the people who were popular, you know, like Fats Domino, Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Gene Vincent, all them kind of people.

Steve Cuden: Right.

Billy J. Kramer: I used to cover their songs in my set, you know, plus things that were in the charts I'd cover. I do Dale Shannon songs, do a Royal Orbison song, a lot of different things. And you know, I'd rock up like that song Tennessee Walsh. I'd do that.

Steve Cuden: Well, at the risk of dating myself and I don't mind doing so. You know, you're part of my youth. I absolutely listened to your work when I was a kid. I'm that old where you're part of my youth and so I, I'm wondering who was influencing you from before. Was it the, the great R and B artist, is that who influenced you?

Billy J. Kramer: Absolutely. I didn't try to take anything from them. You know, I, I liked it, but I didn't think it was the right material for me.

Steve Cuden: But the influence was somehow there as part of that whole movement toward rock and roll, I think.

Billy J. Kramer: Oh absolutely.

Steve Cuden: So I, I'm going to ask you a question I ask lots of guests and I'm always fascinated by the answer and I'll really be interested in your answer for you. When you listen to songs from a criterion perspective, what makes a good song good for you? Why is a song good?

Billy J. Kramer: The lyrics for one. The M melody. And you know, it's like, I'll be honest with you, it's like what can I do? If it's a cover, what can I do to make it mine? I think that's, you know, you got to find a way of doing yourself.

Steve Cuden: Well, Billy, there's no one that sings quite like you. I mean, you're a unique singer and so you thinking, how do you make it yours makes it even that much more special. I assume it's unusual for an act to be just like everybody else and succeed and you weren't like everybody else.

Billy J. Kramer: Well, you know, I'm flattered you say that, you know.

Steve Cuden: Well, I think, I think it shows in all of your hits. That's where I think it really shows.

Billy J. Kramer: You know, a lot of people tell there's a lot of other stuff out there apart from the hits.

Steve Cuden: Well, there, in fact, there's a ton of great stuff, including your very newest album, which is called are you with me? I think the beats that you have in that record are fantastic. That you're still playing that kind of music and singing it and creating it, I think is a real testament to your, dedication to that whole, oeuvre.

Billy J. Kramer: I'm always, you know, I try to write things. I don't write a lot of things, but I try. And I'm always looking for new material.

Steve Cuden: So do you think about that material with your audience in mind, or are you only thinking about the material that appeals to you and then you hope the audience will come along with you?

Billy J. Kramer: I hope that theirs will come along. That'll be, something that I really, really like to do, you know.

Steve Cuden: So when I listen to you sing all the way, going all the way back to the beginning and even to the new stuff, what you impress me most about is how I hope this sounds right. You sing in a laid back and cool manner. It's not frenetic, it's not screamy. It's very, very beautiful sounding. How much does passion for the music play into the way you're singing?

Billy J. Kramer: you've got. You've got to be passionate about it. And, you know, I always find. Try to find songs that I, I really like that, that get to me, you know what I mean?

Steve Cuden: You have to feel it in your heart, don't you?

Billy J. Kramer: I have to feel it. And, you know, you can get. I mean, sometimes I get. I have a song sent to me, you know, and it's just occasionally that one will, you know, come out, hit me. You know, it's like when I did, are you with me? Prior to it, I pulled up like 10 songs that I. That I wanted to do, and I was all set. You know, we were demoing them and stuff like that. And then Mark Hudson sent me this song. You know, I couldn't have done it without you. And I was like, it knocked me out. So I thought, I've got to get rid of one of the others, this is better. I got it.

Steve Cuden: The great producer, Mark Hudson.

Billy J. Kramer: Yes.

Steve Cuden: Did he write that song or did he just send it to you?

Billy J. Kramer: He wrote that song with some other people.

Steve Cuden: Interesting. How wonderful. And you also have on that album Jealous Guy, one of John, Lennon's songs. Yes. And what was it about that song that brought you in? I know it's Lennon, but why that song?

Billy J. Kramer: I think it's a great song. it's a song that I started to do on his birthday as a tribute and people liked it. So I, I thought it was a, a good choice.

Steve Cuden: I, I think it's a really excellent choice. It's one of his better solo songs, I should say. among your songs, do you have one that you never tire of that you can always sing?

Billy J. Kramer: Jealous Guy. From time to time you come across a song and you might like it for a while, but you can fill up with it and you can't inject the passion into it. So I always try and find something else.

Steve Cuden: So I would be remiss if I didn't spend a little bit of time talking about your influences from the Beatles, because obviously they helped start you in the business, or at least John Lennon did for sure. Did you know when you were first dealing with them back in the day that the Beatles would become as huge and be around as long as they have been? Did you know it then?

Billy J. Kramer: Yes, I did.

Steve Cuden: You did? What was it about them?

Billy J. Kramer: I knew from the first time I saw them.

Steve Cuden: Did you see them at the Cavern Club?

Billy J. Kramer: I saw them at the Cavern, but I also first saw them at little in Town Hall.

Steve Cuden: And you knew from the first time you saw them there was something about them?

Billy J. Kramer: Yes, they were very unique. they just had something that was, ah, charismatic.

Steve Cuden: All right, so you not only received songs from them to sing, but you also then toured with them and you spent, I assume, quite a bit of time hanging around with them as you toured.

Billy J. Kramer: You know, I hung out with them in Liverpool before they made records. You know, sometimes we used to go to a bowling alley in Tubro, play ten pin bowling really late at night after the gigs, really, you know, those things like that. And we were friends, you know, I mean, I think one year they gave me like an Elvis album for my birthday.

Steve Cuden: Wow, that's. Yeah, that's you. I assume you understand how truly special that is.

Billy J. Kramer: Yes, absolutely special. You know, I mean, I think it's seemed at the time everything was going so fast. I don't think I appreciated it as much as I do now.

Steve Cuden: I think that. That's true for a lot of artists, and we've talked about this on the show with other guests, that the artists themselves frequently don't appreciate what it is that they're doing. It takes the audience to tell them how good their work is. Usually artists don't know. They know where all the mistakes are.

Billy J. Kramer: I'm always terrible. I mean, I'll come off stage and say to Rose, what was it like? Do you think it was any good?

Steve Cuden: Because you're too. It's the old cliche of you're too close to the forest for the trees. You can't see it.

Billy J. Kramer: You know, putting songs together, I always start by. If I get a demo, I will try it in every possible key. I'll, lock it around until I find what really suits me. It's like an instinct, you know, like. But when I did Bad To Me, George Martin wanted me to do, do it like key of E. I chose to do it in D because I thought I could put more emphasis on different words and different lines than what I could sing E in E because E was more pushing.

Steve Cuden: So when you work with an, I mean, you were recorded by one of the greatest producers of all time, George Martin. When you're working with someone like that, how easy is it for you to then put your stamp on things? Or are they trying to. Or is he trying to put his stamp on it?

Billy J. Kramer: Not at all. I mean, it would usually start off, you know, like, when I did Bad To Me, John Lennon just played it on piano. And then he got to the coast and he sat at the piano and he embellished the song, you know, found nicer chords and different chords, and they would knock it about and come up with an arrangement, and then they would. They would do the track, and then I come in and do the singing. He never, you know, never really coached me. He let me do what I wanted. And if there was something he didn't like, obviously he will put it out, point it out. And he would say, I think if you did this, it would be better.

Steve Cuden: You know, and that. That was the feedback. You'd go back and forth that way, I assume.

Billy J. Kramer: Yes.

Steve Cuden: I think one of his great advantages, which has sort of been lost, was that he came from a classical background. Is that correct?

Billy J. Kramer: Oh, yes. And that's why they always found nice Courts, you know, Because I'll be honest with you, that to me, was very basic, and he really embellished it.

Steve Cuden: You know, he takes it and makes it unique or brings it to a different level. Entirely.

Billy J. Kramer: That's right.

Steve Cuden: At that time, were you cognizant enough of music in general to be able to make that kind of influence, or did you need someone like him in the early days?

Billy J. Kramer: I don't think so. I mean, the. The only thing that I really needed was the. The song played in the right key. The key. And, he. He more or less. Let me get on with you. Ah.

Steve Cuden: Know. How much did you rehearse songs before you went in the studio?

Billy J. Kramer: I didn't. Well, I, Mean, do you want to know secrets? Sure. I mean, do. I did it on stage before for a long time. I also did it in Hamburg at the Star Club. We recorded it as. We did it live.

Steve Cuden: You. You actually recorded the recording that was released. You did that live on stage the.

Billy J. Kramer: Way we did it live. We did it in the recording.

Steve Cuden: I see, I see. You took the live performance and brought it into the studio.

Billy J. Kramer: We did it exactly the same.

Steve Cuden: That's very interesting. what would you say are lessons that you learned from John Lennon, from George Martin? Are there lessons that you learned early on that have carried you through to this day?

Billy J. Kramer: Most of the songs I got on the day, I'd never heard them before, really, and I had to learn them and think, of how to sing them on the spot.

Steve Cuden: Can you read music as well, or do you do it all by ear?

Billy J. Kramer: No, I can't. I just have a good ear.

Steve Cuden: That's amazing. And you were learning them in the studio as you were getting ready to record?

Billy J. Kramer: Yes.

Steve Cuden: That's incredible. I mean, that's. You have a phenomenal ear then. That's what you have. And obviously you have super pitch.

Billy J. Kramer: It was. I'll be honest with you, it was a bit stressful and, texting.

Steve Cuden: I bet it was.

Billy J. Kramer: And you look back and think, I could have done this better. I, could have done that better.

Steve Cuden: all right, so then you eventually meet Brian Epstein and this is, this is a turning point for you?

Billy J. Kramer: Yeah, I mean, the turning point because I'd reached the stage where I was gigging every night of the week. I was also working British Rail and I knew, you know, I was late nights and going to work. I knew I had to make a decision. And I was about to depart from Liverpool to go to crew for a year when Brian came along and said he'd like to manage me.

Steve Cuden: Wow, that was fortuitous, huh?

Billy J. Kramer: You know, I was very flattered. quite honestly, there were other people around, but I don't think I would have turned, made a career without being Approached by Brian.

Steve Cuden: So I must so stop for just a moment and say that for those who don't know who Brian Epstein was, he was the manager of the Beatles who took them to their great stardom. And he found you as well.

Billy J. Kramer: He found me? He found Jerry and the pacemakers seller, Black, you know, he managed to bank all the big three. He managed the foremost.

Steve Cuden: What, what did he do? How did he make things happen for you?

Billy J. Kramer: It was always a, an advisory, you know, he would come to shows, he'd look at the set list and tell me what he thought of it, what songs you'll keep in, what I should keep out, how I announce them. It gives me better ideas of what to say to the audience, stuff like.

Steve Cuden: That, you know, how important is the programming of your evening songs? That is the order of the songs. How important is that to making the show really work?

Billy J. Kramer: Well, it's very important and it's something that, you know, you just have to work on, you know, the right song to open with, the next song to follow it, bringing audience up to bring them down. They're always, you know, what, what I think about when I write as a sentence and sometimes I'll do it for weeks.

Steve Cuden: So. So you've operated for most of your career then? You've now mentioned it a couple of times. Off of your gut, off of your feeling, rather than some great, intellectual exercise.

Billy J. Kramer: Yes.

Steve Cuden: And that's important that an artist. I think it's important that artists feel things, but at the same time you have to be practical, correct?

Billy J. Kramer: Absolutely. You know, I mean, I've, been very lucky, you know, I had great songs. Ah. I had a great producer and a great manager and it was at the right time.

Steve Cuden: Well, you're also lucky. You have a remarkable voice. You look pretty doggone good on stage and on camera. So all those things are, you know, you can't control all of that. So, you know, there's a degree of luck to it. But you worked at it too. How long did you work as a singer before things really started to happen for you?

Billy J. Kramer: Well, I mean, I played around the clubs in Liverpool for a number of years, you know, I did a lot of shows at the Cavern, the Iron Door, Atria Institute, Blair Hall, Tower Ballroom, Congest loads of places and it was good practice.

Steve Cuden: Did I read about you? That you started off, you were kind of a shy person and, and that you.

Billy J. Kramer: Absolutely.

Steve Cuden: And so what did you do to come into yourself? Was it just a lot of, a lot of performance or anything else?

Billy J. Kramer: Well, you know, it what exactly happened was, we would. The men were always searching for searches for singers because I wouldn't take it up. And then they, they sort of gave me an ultimatum and said, you're either going to give singing a shot or, know, get out of the band.

Steve Cuden: So at some point, you get, put together with a band called the Dakotas and eventually become known as Billy Cr. Billy J. Kramer with the Dakotas.

Billy J. Kramer: Not.

Steve Cuden: And the Dakotas. Why with and not.

Billy J. Kramer: And because they wanted their own identity. You know, it was a strange relationship, to be honest with you. You know, I was from Liverpool, they were from Manchester, and there's a difference. And you know, I wasn't bothered. I just thought, you know, they were a good band. They were very good in the studio. They could turn things around on a dime if they were asked. So I wasn't bothered about names and stuff like that.

Steve Cuden: Right. Did you get along with them off stage as well as on.

Billy J. Kramer: At times, not all the time, but I mean, I think that happens with everybody.

Steve Cuden: Well, that's true. Well, that's true.

Billy J. Kramer: You know, you're on top of each other 24 hours a day, nearly every day of the week. And you know, it was a, a very fast time. So you're bound to get on each other's nerves, I would think.

Steve Cuden: So you're on top of each other all the time. So yeah, you're going to get on each other's nerves. I mean, ultimately, look at what happened to the Beatles. That was a, They were as good a band as they come, but they got on each other's nerves eventually too. What was it about that band that made, at least at that time, your work elevate to a point where you had big hits. What was it about that band?

Billy J. Kramer: They were at the time very accomplished musicians. It's known now that a lot of bands in the 60s use session plays. The Dakota's played on all my records. You know, if I was in the studio and we wanted to change the key, they would do it instantly. They were like session men actually. But they were a band, you know, and in that way they were very, easy to work with. Other ways it was difficult because we always had a difference opinion on what songs to record. We always had a different opinion about the set list. I wasn't, quite frankly, I wasn't the star of the show. It was all of us.

Steve Cuden: It was the group.

Billy J. Kramer: Yes.

Steve Cuden: That's why, you know, when you're saying most people would not understand the difference between Billy J. Kramer with the Dakotas vs Billy J. Kramer and the Dakotas. But it makes a distinction in terms of how you fit in the world, how people think of you as. At that time, you were a unit. At least I think, to the public.

Billy J. Kramer: To the public, yes. I mean, they would do the culture thing. I, I never really.

Steve Cuden: It did.

Billy J. Kramer: Didn't bother me. You know, it was like Brian said at first it was going to be Villier, Kramer and the Dakotas, and then they. I don't know why, for some weird reason, they wanted it with the Dakotas. Sure.

Steve Cuden: Well. And you've said why? Because they wanted to have that distinction. which I find fascinating. I mean, that's an artistic ego thing, is what's going on at that point. You've spent virtually the rest of your career, which is a healthy, long time, as a solo act, right?

Billy J. Kramer: Yes.

Steve Cuden: And what are the difference for you as a solo act, if any, between being a solo act and having a band supporting you?

Billy J. Kramer: Well, there's a lot more responsibility. You know, you, you hire, you fire, you have to find the right agents and stuff like that, you know. And also, you know, in my case, you've got to make sure that the musicians are treated well and do the right thing.

Steve Cuden: Have you been your own producer all these years, too?

Billy J. Kramer: I produced my singles, you know, I mean, I was counting out last week. I think I made about 16 or 18 other singles that had never charted, really. They may have gotten 100, but they never, they weren't top 10m. And I, had a lot of saying then. The only time that I really went out, was when I did the album, I won the fight. And I did that with a guy from Long island called Don Salenza. And the two of us work solidly on that together.

Steve Cuden: Did you feel any difference in the way that things were controlled when you weren't in control? Totally.

Billy J. Kramer: I really, I enjoyed it, you know, getting things from the start and taking them from maybe just an acoustic guitar to a full production, you know, I mean, that was very rewarding. I wasn't self indulgence, you know, I. I had to believe that what I was doing was good, to things I could have done better, but it was my first shot at doing a whole album.

Steve Cuden: Were you still going into the studio not knowing the songs?

Billy J. Kramer: It's sometimes, you know, like the title track of I Won the Fight was I Won the Fight. And what happened was we had like 10 or 12 songs, and I said to Dom one day, we need something to tie everything together and between us, we came up with I won the fight there and then on the spot. It's the only time it's happened.

Steve Cuden: So I know that lots of bands, bands in particular and some single writer singers, will go into the studio with nothing and they will work their songs out in the studio. They'll write them, they'll create the lyrics. I know that the Bee Gees did that quite a bit and so on. Has that been a lot of your experience where you go in with nothing and you create it in the studio?

Billy J. Kramer: When I was, you know, I, I was still, I was with other record labels and by then, you know, I was starting to do things with orchestras and singers and different things and they had to be, you know, studios were very expensive then, you know, and it was hard to get studio time. So you had to go, go in there and because of the financial side of it, you had to be prepared to get it together by then. I was always well rehearsed and knew what I was going to do. There were things that, I'll be honest with you, there were things that started off as just a group thing and ended up orchestrated later.

Steve Cuden: Well, that's a, that becomes a monetary consideration then.

Billy J. Kramer: unfortunately, you know, I mean, when I did the record Trains, Boats and Planes, all I did was put a rhythm track together with the Dakotas and ah, George Martin overdubbed the strings really.

Steve Cuden: So, so that was put together a little bit different than your very, very first stuff then.

Billy J. Kramer: Absolutely.

Steve Cuden: And so you've also written songs too over time. When you sit down to write, do you write on a guitar or a piano or how do you write on the guitar? What do you typically write? Lyrics or music?

Billy J. Kramer: First think of the melody first and then I think of an idea for the lyric.

Steve Cuden: I've written songs in my life and it's always been music first. So I write to the music. That's what you're saying. Do you not have a hook in mind or you look for a hook.

Billy J. Kramer: After you have the melody sometimes, you know, I mean, I wrote the song Liu Bavu. I'd love to get Brian Epstein and the hall of Fame. It just started off I wanted to write a song because we were going through a period where people weren't writing songs with three chords, they were writing them with five or six. And I just thought, I want to go back and I want to do something the old way, like three chords. And all I had was the hook home, to Liverpool with love. That was all I Had.

Steve Cuden: But that's what you need sometimes, is just that hook that gets you in. And then, Do you also then play on the records, too?

Billy J. Kramer: No.

Steve Cuden: No, you're just writing on the records.

Billy J. Kramer: I don't think I'm good enough.

Steve Cuden: But you're good enough to create a song but not good enough to play technically on an album.

Billy J. Kramer: I will come up with it roughly. And then I'll sit with someone like Don Salenza, who will put it together for me.

Steve Cuden: Well, certainly every video I've seen of you, and I've seen quite a few, you're never playing anything. You're always out front singing.

Billy J. Kramer: So, sometimes I play on stage on the old song.

Steve Cuden: What. What do you think for you is the most challenging part of writing a song?

Billy J. Kramer: I think the lyrics.

Steve Cuden: Is it, as Billy Joel says, the tyranny of the rhyme? Is that the problem?

Billy J. Kramer: Yeah, it's. It's, you know, it's. It's very hard. Sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's like. Yeah, it can take weeks. The Beatles must have had that unique thing where they could just bag them off, but I don't think many people can.

Steve Cuden: They. They wrote it. They wrote many songs sitting in the studio on company time.

Billy J. Kramer: That's why they're still there after 60 years, I think. You know. Right. I think most people. You can get an idea. It's like the song I did at Mark Hudson's was something that I talked to him about, the idea a year before.

Steve Cuden: Oh, really?

Billy J. Kramer: And then he called me up off the blue and he said, do you know what we were trying to do something? I said, yeah. He said, well, I've done it and put it together.

Steve Cuden: So that's a case of the material of some kind got input into his computer, into his brain, and it took a while for the computer to figure it out, and then out it came. Yeah, that's sometimes just how it works for art.

Billy J. Kramer: As I say, you can have an idea and it might be you just can't get to it. And then a year later, sometimes more, it'll come back.

Steve Cuden: Some Kind of Inspiration hits. Once you have a song that you've chosen, you've decided you're going to choose this song or instead of that song, what is your first thing that you do? Is it you learn the songs backwards and forwards, or is it you go in and try and work it out in the studio from a vocalist perspective?

Billy J. Kramer: I write the lyrics out on a piece of paper by hand, and then I sing it and then I play the demo. If It's a demo. If I don't get it right, I rip the paper up and start again. And I do that. Like, got it off path.

Steve Cuden: Do you have a studio in your home?

Billy J. Kramer: No, I used to, but I don't know.

Steve Cuden: So therefore you're doing a recording, a demo and then you're listening and then you're starting over again. So that's time. There's a lot of time involved.

Billy J. Kramer: And I drive myself crazy.

Steve Cuden: Are you a perfectionist?

Billy J. Kramer: Absolutely.

Steve Cuden: You're a perfectionist. So that's. Those kinds of things that don't seem perfect to you, they make you a little crazy.

Billy J. Kramer: You know, sometimes it might be just one thing. It's like when I did Liverpool with Love. There's a line in it where it was like. It says football noise, which is a soccer Teddy Boys. No wonder our parents cried, you know, because the Teddy Boys were the bad boys. Yes. You know, but that line, it was like weeks, maybe a month before I, came up with it. It drove me crazy.

Steve Cuden: This is a great question for me to understand how you do things, me as an artist, which is when you are being driven crazy like that. What do you do? Do you take walks? Do you exercise? Do you listen to other music? How do you deal with it?

Billy J. Kramer: I do it like I drive myself crazy. Can't do. I just reach a point where I go, I'll come back to it.

Steve Cuden: You let it go?

Billy J. Kramer: I let it go and then I go back to it.

Steve Cuden: You still enjoy performing live?

Billy J. Kramer: yes, I do. It's challenging. I still got nervous, but I don't know what. While I get that feeling about it, I'll do it, you know.

Steve Cuden: I think the listeners should pay attention to what Billy just said. He has been performing now for, I'm, not going to say how many decades, but. Decades. Decades. And you still get nervous?

Billy J. Kramer: Absolutely.

Steve Cuden: I, ah, think that that is a sign, frankly, that you care.

Billy J. Kramer: Absolutely, I care. It's, it's what I've done my whole life. And it's, you know, it's, it's I have a passion for it. You know, sometimes I'll be totally where I'll, you know, I'll go through periods where, I always say there's nothing happening, you know, mentally as well as doing it. And it always comes back, you know, it's. It's like I went through a stage quite recently where I thought, you know, I've done a whole album together and I was going to put it out and I was going, shall I Shantai and then somebody sent me a song and I went, yeah, I got to do it. And it's always that. That next thing.

Steve Cuden: It is always that next thing. And there's always these little triggers in life that keeps pushing you on, especially if you're an artist, which you clearly are, that you're going to keep doing art. And it's not a. You don't run out of art. It just keeps coming.

Billy J. Kramer: There's always a song that will come along. It might be the fact that it's a song that's a challenge. You know, it might be a song that rhythmically it's different than anything you've ever done before. You know, learning things like that and different tempos and different styles, it's. It's challenging to learn it. And when you overcome it and you can do it, it's a great feeling.

Steve Cuden: Do you feel like inspiration? Many creative people feel like inspiration comes through them from somewhere else, whether they call it God or the universe or whatever it is. Do you feel like your inspirations come through you or you generate them?

Billy J. Kramer: It's a bit of both. You know, I mean, I've. I, You know, I've been, like, stuck on a song, but then I've got the idea and it might be a week or two later and I'll be at a meeting or something and I'll go home and I have the answers.

Steve Cuden: Once again, your computer in your head was working on the problem, even in your sleep and even in your downtime.

Billy J. Kramer: And eventually it's something like that, or I just thought, thank you. Another gift from God.

Steve Cuden: A gift from God. that's what I was curious about. I. I want to go back a half a step to performance, which I'm fascinated by. You've been on some huge stages in your career, not only performing, you know, on tour with the Beatles, but I have to ask you about the Ed, Sullivan show, because that was really for my youth. I watched the Ed Sullivan show every Sunday night for years and years and years. How nervous were you to do that show?

Billy J. Kramer: Obviously, I was nervous, but, you know, what had happened was I experienced doing Sunday Night at the London Palladium, and I wasn't very good. It definitely affected my record sales. I just thought, I'm never going to let that happen again. When I came to do a Sullivan show, we went in the afternoon, rehearsed, and then I just went back to the hotel and watched TV and had something to eat. And I came back as closer to the time as I could and I just went on and did it. You look at the camera and think there's like 70 odd million people watching you. But I tried to think of it. Isn't that great?

Steve Cuden: So the Palladium, that was the big show in England, the sort of Sullivan in England, but Sullivan was even bigger in America. Am I right?

Billy J. Kramer: Yes.

Steve Cuden: If you could hit it on the Sullivan show, you were going to get somewhere with that.

Billy J. Kramer: I didn't realize that at the time.

Steve Cuden: You didn't?

Billy J. Kramer: To me it was just a big TV show and I wanted to be good on it. And it came off well and I'm grateful that it helped me.

Steve Cuden: Well, I would say so. And m. Am I correct that I read correctly that you appeared four different times on that show in a year?

Billy J. Kramer: Yes. They must have liked me.

Steve Cuden: I would say they did. what did that show then do to your to use the word fame? How did it increase your fame and did people start chasing you down the streets at that point? Did it change things for you?

Billy J. Kramer: that had already started in England, you know, I mean I was used to getting my clothes to off and torn off people. Yeah, you know, I mean I remember I was in Edinburgh one and I said to the road manager, can you bring my. I had a black cord shirt and black brow. Can you bring it? And he says, you look fine in what you're wearing. I was wearing a three piece suit that I had made in London, Savile Row, very expensive. And this, this girl spotted me on the street, attracted a lot of other people. I ended up getting the suit ripped off.

Steve Cuden: Oh my goodness.

Billy J. Kramer: You know, and things like that happened a few times.

Steve Cuden: So that kind of fame came on fairly quickly for you, did it not?

Billy J. Kramer: It came. You know, it's funny because I, I always say that I got on a train to Manchester, William Ashton and I mimed to a record on Sin at 6:30. Went home to having 500 kids outside the front door.

Steve Cuden: Oh my goodness.

Billy J. Kramer: In the same day, you know, so it's the same day. Famous.

Steve Cuden: Well you, you brought up the name William Ashton. That's your, your birth name.

Billy J. Kramer: Yes.

Steve Cuden: And then became Billy J. Kramer. or you were Billy Kramer and then Billy J. Kramer.

Billy J. Kramer: well, the guys in the band wanted me to have a stage name and I said it's got to be Billy something. And they came up with the Kramer and then later John Lennon added the J.

Steve Cuden: Added the J. How do you think that fame then changed you? What did it do to you?

Billy J. Kramer: It was strange because it was a lot A lot to accept. You know, I remember, sort of, I was on a tour in Oxford and Brian Epstein called me and says, you're going to be number one on the charts tomorrow. And I'll be honest with you, I lay on the bed and I said, where do I go from here, really? What was like 1920? You know, what was strange was the Beatles all had each other. Me and little coaches, we worked together, but we didn't have each other. You weren't friends, they weren't supportive. I always felt that the only reason that they took on the job of working with m me was they were guaranteed a record deal on their own.

Steve Cuden: And so. So you had no support at that time from those surrounding you, except perhaps Brian Epstein?

Billy J. Kramer: Yeah, well, I mean, quite honestly, they never came up with a song. You know, I came. The songs were presented to me by John and Paul and they were very rough. I had to arrange and put them together. A lot of the ideas were mine. Little Children was the song I discovered. It was my arrangement. You know, originally it was just a demo with Maud Schumer playing piano and singing it very badly. But I saw the potential of the song.

Steve Cuden: What I think is fascinating is you're talking about. I say this for the listeners who think that show business is all peaches and cream. It's not. You, actually have to struggle through certain things behind the scenes to get to the success in front of cameras and on recordings. And clearly you struggled with certain aspects of the business.

Billy J. Kramer: It is a struggle and it's. To me, I look at it back now, I think that was very detrimental. Maybe there was so much going on, I didn't need the aggravation.

Steve Cuden: You survived it, clearly.

Billy J. Kramer: I would take a song to the Dakotas and, play it to them. And they said, well, we can't see it. We don't like that. We're not playing it.

Steve Cuden: And so what would you do with that? How would you deal with it?

Billy J. Kramer: I just move on to something else.

Steve Cuden: Something else.

Billy J. Kramer: That's all I did until. Until my contract with, Ami ran out and Brian Epstein was in the stage of starting his own label. And I went out and for the first time I made a record with the Bee Gees. I did a song called Town of Tuxed Toy Maker. It was the first time I'd used a big orchestra in the studio and they were a bit annoyed with me, the Duchose. And I said, well, I've done something I wanted to do without having to.

Steve Cuden: Ask you and do you feel like that impacted how you then looked at the business. Did it change in any meaningful way how you then approached finding songs and then singing then as a solo act?

Billy J. Kramer: Yes, I started to, to really do a lot of research, you know, find out all about publishers and what they had. I would sometimes take days in London and go to all the different publishers listening to songs and I would take them all home and play them and then occasionally want to jump at me and not do it.

Steve Cuden: Did you ever go back and pull the songs that the Dakotas rejected and record those?

Billy J. Kramer: The only song I did was I was in New York and a guy called Jack Nitze was producing Jackity Shannon and he gave me needles and pins. And when you walk in the room and I asked, ah, the coaches, they wouldn't play it. And I went on a tour of Australia and I did it live. And then when I came back from Australia, I was on the plane and I read in the paper that the Searchers had done it.

Steve Cuden: There you go.

Billy J. Kramer: Which made me feel a bit sick.

Steve Cuden: Yeah, I imagine it did because there. Ah, but, but that was also the day and age when it was fairly common for covers to happen on a regular basis. One band would, would. Yeah, different bands.

Billy J. Kramer: But I'm saying quite frankly, they, they did a great version.

Steve Cuden: What is your storyteller show that I mentioned in the bio? What is that?

Billy J. Kramer: It's more or less what we like we've been doing today. I talk about the songs, I talk about how they were produced, how I got them, different things on the day of the sessions and then I play the songs.

Steve Cuden: You play them, not sing them.

Billy J. Kramer: Sometimes I use a band, sometimes I just use ah, a couple of guitar players. Sometimes I've done it with tracks.

Steve Cuden: And is that all over the world? Is it just the us? Is it the uk? Where do you do those?

Billy J. Kramer: Well, I've done it in the us, I've done it in England.

Steve Cuden: And you still, I assume, have quite a few fans around the world?

Billy J. Kramer: they do, yes. You know, which is very rewarding.

Steve Cuden: People still listen to what you did and it hasn't gone away. I mean it may not be on radio play today, but it's still out there in streaming and everywhere else. It's on YouTube and all kinds of things.

Billy J. Kramer: People tell me it's historic.

Steve Cuden: Well, see, it is historic. it's now classic of its era. tell us about your book, do youo Want To Know A Secret? Is it pure autobiography?

Billy J. Kramer: It's pure autobiography. I was talking to ah, Frank Stallone, Sylvester Stallone's brother in California. I was doing a show there, with him, and he just said to me, you ever thought of writing an autobiography? And I said, I've never thought about it. I've got a couple of notes at home to. Main thing is, who do I do it with? And he suggested Alan Shipton, who'd done Get Galloway, all the Jazz People. And he'd just done Harry Nielsen's book and got a lot of awards stuff. And he gave me his phone number and email address. And, I got on to him and he, he said, I'd love to do it, which actually surprised me. And then he came to New York and spent some time with me. You know, I wanted it to be factual. A lot of sex and drugs and rock and roll. But when he came on tour with me in England and we put it together, I wouldn't do it again.

Steve Cuden: I understand. You would not do it again. I get it. It's a lot of work and it's a hard, hard road to hoe. and, But it must be satisfying to have it out there.

Billy J. Kramer: It is. But, you know, it's like sometimes, you know, it's like things will jump. Like I forgot the fact that, like, I was very close to Jean Vincent when I was in Hamburg. You know, stories about that. Then, you know, there's like the Flying Scotsman to train. I worked on the railway. I worked on the train when I was on the railway. I'd forgotten all about things like that. I'd be lying in bed, somebody could jump back. It was strange.

Steve Cuden: Well, but you're not going to do a revised version of the book with all the added stories?

Billy J. Kramer: No, I might just do that.

Steve Cuden: Well, so you could re release the book. You re release it and you refresh and it's the same thing, only it's, a new day for it.

Billy J. Kramer: I think it's a new day and I think I'd be more focused now.

Steve Cuden: Well, then have at it, because that just gives you more opportunities to get your story out there. So I have been having just the most fun talking to Billy J. Kramer for almost an hour now. And we're going to wind the show down just a little bit. And I'm just wondering, Billy, you've told us all these wonderful stories. Is there a story you can share with us that's either weird, quirky, offbeat, strange, or just plain funny from your illustrious career?

Billy J. Kramer: There's a couple. You know, it's like I was on stage outside of London and it was a time when flower pot was all ago. I was on stage in a caftown. What's that? Beads and all the things. And there was these girls at the front screaming and all that stuff. And a guy walked on the stage from the side and poured a pint of beer over my head.

Steve Cuden: Why?

Billy J. Kramer: I said, why did you do that? And he said, I didn't want it. So, you know, to me, I always thought, like, how would you answer that?

Steve Cuden: He just didn't want the beer and he dumped it on your head instead of.

Billy J. Kramer: I mean, funny enough, I could see the funny side of it.

Steve Cuden: Did you continue to perform?

Billy J. Kramer: Absolutely. Nothing stops the mark.

Steve Cuden: What did the audience do? Did they cheer or moan or what did they do?

Billy J. Kramer: They were aghast. I've had odd things happen. I was in, California. I was doing a people festival, and a girl walk on the stage with a sock framed behind glass. And she come up with this story about how, when I was on tour there in the 60s, she crept into my bedroom and stole a pair of my socks.

Steve Cuden: Oh, my goodness.

Billy J. Kramer: And had them framed.

Steve Cuden: Oh, my goodness.

Billy J. Kramer: I thought that was weird.

Steve Cuden: That's a little weird. Did she ask you to sign them or something?

Billy J. Kramer: No, I was like, I'll be honest with you in that one. I didn't know what to say because I didn't know what to say. Yeah. I was like, are you joking or. Ah. What? You know, I didn't know what to say.

Steve Cuden: Stole your sock. Oh, gosh. That's also a little creepy, don't you think, that somebody snuck into your room?

Billy J. Kramer: I thought it was creepy.

Steve Cuden: so. All right, last question for you today, Billy. you shared with us massive amount of advice throughout the whole show. Lots of thoughts for people who are trying to get into this business or try to make something of themselves. Do you have a single solid piece of advice or a tip that you like to give to those who are starting out or maybe they're in a little bit trying to get to the next level?

Billy J. Kramer: I think you've always got to be prepared to give 100% or more. You've got to be prepared that there's going to be good times and bad times. You've got all that to do with a lot of rejection. The only other advice I can give is enjoy it, have fun with it.

Steve Cuden: I think that's inspiring. yeah, it's going to be hard work all the way through, but you've got to stay inspired and make things happen. If you're going to. If you're really going to be in the business, that's for sure. And clearly you have done that. You've. You've stuck with it a long time. And I give you lots of credit.

Billy J. Kramer: There's always bumps in the road.

Steve Cuden: There are. As my grandmother used to say, there's always a fly in the ointment. She used to say that phrase, you know, and so you have to kind of take the good with the bad, and you work through those things. And that's what makes life. Life. It's what makes the journey interesting.

Billy J. Kramer: I realized I'd never done an audition, audition for something. And Brian Epstein and other people have mentioned, like, do the music or something. And I saw the play Blood Brooks, and I thought to myself, I can do that. I don't have to learn an accent because it's a Liverpool play. all I have to do is learn the songs. And I learned the songs, I learned the dialogue. I auditioned in a theater on Broadway. It was something I wanted to do. And they said you'd be great. They never called me back. And what came to me was quite honest. I thought of, like, actors who go on auditions every day of the week, every day, look back, and, that's, you know, you have to learn to, just let it roll off you.

Steve Cuden: Well, you had a little bit of spoilage in the sense that it was. It happened to you fairly quickly, early on without you having to go through all that process. But, yeah, there are actors that get up every single day and go on auditions and don't get cast. And don't get cast. And don't get cast until Sunday. Something catches.

Billy J. Kramer: One time you had to have a record deal. You know, most of the record companies at their own studios, things like that, people are making their own music in their own studios or hiring studios. So it's a different process.

Steve Cuden: It's definitely a different process today than it certainly was back in the day when you started.

Billy J. Kramer: Well, you know, let's face it, there's no. There's no CDs. Vinyl's made a sort of comeback. it's strange that everything's a download, it's streaming. I think it's unfortunate because I think kids are missing something.

Steve Cuden: I miss album covers. I miss being able to read the lyrics and look at pictures.

Billy J. Kramer: I miss all that and who played on it and all the information.

Steve Cuden: Exactly.

Billy J. Kramer: I think that's a missing thing.

Steve Cuden: Well, liner notes were an art form at one time, and album covers were an art form.

Billy J. Kramer: They were, yes.

Steve Cuden: They were prized, but not anymore. Now it's all gone.

Billy J. Kramer: I think It's. I think it's missing.

Steve Cuden: Well, I agree with you. I think it's desperately missing, and I don't see it coming back anytime soon. But that's the way it is.

Billy J. Kramer: You never know.

Steve Cuden: You don't know. You're correct. But I don't. I don't envision it happening tomorrow.

Billy J. Kramer: I don't put you. Did you ever think bottle will come back?

Steve Cuden: No, I didn't think it would come back. And I. And it certainly hasn't come back as big as it once was, but did come back.

Billy J. Kramer: Yeah. And I think it could happen with CDs and things.

Steve Cuden: well, I agree. CDs, I think, are a fine form. I don't know about eight tracks or cassettes, because I think they wear down too easy. But vinyl you can keep, and CDs definitely work. And you're always going to have, I think, at this point, some form of streaming. And so there you have it. The question is, can anybody make any money at it anymore? Anymore? That's the problem.

Billy J. Kramer: It's too. It's very difficult, you know. And, that's why I think a lot of today's bands, they. It's the doing shows, festivals, big audiences, that. That's the only way. And I. I think that's very sad.

Steve Cuden: It is.

Billy J. Kramer: I also think, like, how. How did new people get their stuff out to the public?

Steve Cuden: They can't.

Billy J. Kramer: And the only way is by doing these festivals and things and touring with.

Steve Cuden: And touring as an opening band for some bigger act and that kind of thing.

Billy J. Kramer: Well, you know, I mean, I think it's, you know, people like Paul McCartney and, Bruce Springsteen and people like that, I think they're okay with it. But I think there's a lot of smaller. People are not getting the breaks that I think they're used to and they're getting now.

Steve Cuden: I agree. It's. And it's much harder because it's harder to get what used to be called radio play that's sort of gone away and now you have to find streaming.

Billy J. Kramer: Let's face it. I mean, these radio shows where they'll play one after another, announcements and new DJs with new ideas to come along.

Steve Cuden: And it makes it harder for someone new as an artist to become known.

Billy J. Kramer: It's just really hard.

Steve Cuden: So, Billy J. Kramer, this has been so much fun for me, and I really can't thank you enough, really, for your time, your energy, and for your great wisdom and for all that music from my youth and which I still treasure, and I thank you so much for spending time with me on the show today.

Billy J. Kramer: Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

Steve Cuden: And now, as promised, Billy has been so very generous to lend us his wonderful new Christmas song. So please sit back and enjoy Billy J. Kramer's Christmas Kind of Feeling.

"Christmas Kind of Feeling": It's, a Christmas kind of feeling Jolly Jim Appealing, cozy and warm Time for getting together Sharing that Christmas feeling once more look at the snow on the rooftop and the stars in the winter sky the Santa will be coming soon with toys for those who be nice It's a Christmas kind of feeling Jolly appealing, cozy and warm Time for getting together Sharing that Christmas feeling once. More. Father goes out to the front yard to heat up the car outside Mother rounds up all the kids for the holiday party tonight It's a Christmas kind of feeling Jolly appealing, cozy and warm Time for getting together Sharing that Christmas feeling once more. M M Aunties and uncles, Sisters and brothers Raising the glass one by one to our gifts the good Lord giveth and peace, they pray will come It's a Christmas kind of feeling Jolly appealing, cozy and warm Time for getting together Sharing that Christmas feeling once more It's a Christmas kind of feeling Jolly appealing, Cozy and warm Time for getting together Sharing that Christmas feeling once more It's a Christmas feeling for sure.

Steve Cuden: And so we've come to the end of today's Story Beat. If you like this episode, won't you please take a moment to give us a comment, rating, or review on whatever app or platform you're listening to? Your support helps us bring more great Story Beat episodes to you. Story Beat is available on all major podcast apps and platforms, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, iHeartRadio, TuneIn, and many others. Until next time, I'm Steve Cuden and may all your stories be unforgettable.