Carl Canedy & Phillip Harrington

Steve Cuden: On today’s StoryBeat:

Carl Canedy: Carmine Appice has played with Rod Stewart, Pink Floyd, so many bands. So studying with Carmine, it just changed my drumming Life. But he taught me some valuable lessons and that were so important to me. One was, if you’re playing because you want to get laid, you want to get rich, you want to get famous, you’re playing for the wrong reasons. If you play because you love it, you’ll have it your whole life. And here I am, and I love it, and I’ve had it my whole life. And it’s, more and more as I look back on, it was the best thing that could have happened to me.

Announcer: This is StoryBeat with Steve Cuden, a podcast for the creative mind. StoryBeat explores how masters of creativity develop and produce brilliant works that people everywhere love and admire. So join us as we discover how talented creators find success in the worlds of imagination and Entertainment. Here now is your host, Steve Cuden.

Steve Cuden: Thanks for joining us on StoryBeat. We’re coming to you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My guests today, heavy metal rock legend Carl Kennedy and writer Philip Doc Harrington, recently published Carl’s autobiography, tales of a wild Memoirs of a Rock warrior. Since the age of five. After observing a striking red drum set at a wedding reception, Carl was determined to play the drums. He received his first drum set in his early teens, immediately immersed himself in practice, and eventually developed his now famous signature style. He also taught himself how to play guitar and piano, which would later come in handy in his role as a songwriter. After spending his formative years touring with the band Kalakos in 1979, Carl joined forces with David Rock Feinstein to start the brilliant upstate New York power trio the Rods. The band quickly became a sensation in the northeast, landing a major recording contract with Arista Records, the Rods toured and played shows with the likes of no Less than Judas Priest, Ozzy Motorhead, Metallica, Richie Blackmore, Blue Oyster Cult, and many others. In the late 1980s, Carl produced some of heavy metals most iconic bands, including Anthrax, Overkill, Exciterez, Possessed, Hellstar, and many others. He also coached, developed, and mentored bands such as Rox Gang and Young Turk. The Rods had a resurgence in 2010 with their comeback album Vengeance, which was followed by Brotherhood of Metal and the highly acclaimed Rattle the Cage. The Rods continue to tour and are currently putting the final touches on their 11th studio album. Carl has also released two albums under the moniker of Canedy Doc Harrington is a devoted culinarian and a dedicated heavy metal fan. A graduate of the esteemed Culinary Institute of America. He has spent the past two decades writing and arranging technical manuals for the baking industry. Doc views the eighties heavy metal scene as monumentally historic and highly impactful. He seeks to chronicle as much of its stories, triumphs and challenges as time permits. A massive Rods fan, Doc encouraged Carl to write his memoirs. I’ve read tales of a wild dog and can tell you it’s an intense, personal look at working within the gritty, full force world of heavy metal. If you’re a fan of the genre and want to know more about its origins and the people in it, be sure to check out tales of a wild dog. So for all those reasons and many more, I’m truly thrilled to have the exceptionally multitalented Carl Canedy and Philip Doc Harrington join me today on StoryBeat. Carl and Doc, welcome to the show.

Carl Canedy: Steve, thank you so much for having us.

Steve Cuden: It’s a great privilege, and believe me. So let’s go back in time a little bit. Where did all of this energy toward music and drums really start? I know you were inspired when you were five years old, Carl, when you saw this drum kit, but did you know right then and there you were going to be in music your whole life?

Carl Canedy: You know, because of doing this book and working with, with Doc, I’ve been, you have this whole introspective thing. And then as time went on, I was able to be objective as opposed to subjective. And so, as I look back on it, I’m thinking we walked into this VFW and I saw this tank outside, and it was, wow, that’s the coolest thing, seeing this tank. We go inside and suddenly I see this drum set. I don’t remember any musicians. I remember this drum set was like the white light shown down and the Alleluia singers. And that was it. I was mesmerized and I was transfixed. All I wanted to do was play drums from that point on. But as I think about it, by looking at it, I was obsessed the whole time, my whole life. But I didn’t even know what drums were then. I was like five years old. I had no idea what drums were, how to play them, anything about it. All I knew was I wanted to play drums. So whenever I saw anybody on tv, tv with a band and drum set, I get really excited. And, you know, it took me, I tried to play in fifth grade, fifth grade, I think, and they had all the drum chairs were taken. So I wound up with clarinet. The last thing I wanted to play.

Steve Cuden: Clarinet.

Carl Canedy: Clarinet. About as far from set of drums if you, saw me, you know, somebody just looked at my career and go, what do you think his first instrument was? They would never guess. Clarinet. No, they still have it. And of course, I can actually still play the embouchure. I’m still able to do. I’m able to make clear notes out of it, which is amazing.

Steve Cuden: Wow.

Carl Canedy: But I don’t know how to play any melodies on it. I just, you know, make noise.

Steve Cuden: Did you ever think about doing a clarinet heavy metal record?

Carl Canedy: I, think it’s a good idea. I can put it through. I have some devices here I can put through, run it through an app with some kind of distortion pedal. But, so I think I got drumstick somewhere around 7th grade, and I got this practice pad, and that’s when I started playing. And this practice pad was, it was a 45 degree angle, so it was a very hard rubber, thin piece of rubber. So when I played, it was basically like playing on a piece of wood. It was horrible. Sound. Clicky, clicky, clicky. And, because I played match grip, I didn’t play traditional grip. So I held my sticks equally, and each hand has the same style, which is more of a french grip. So straight ahead, as opposed to the way you see big band drummers who always play traditional grips. so I would practice on that and just basically banging on it, banging on anything in the house. But that was it for me. But my whole life I’ve been obsessed with it. And then once I got drums, I practiced constantly.

Steve Cuden: Do you still practice constantly?

Carl Canedy: I would love to say yes to that, but I practice diligently. I have a set, a little practice pad with double bass pedal in my living room, and I watch tv and I’ll practice there for an hour and I try things. And of course, I have my drums here where I record a lot. And so I do practice a lot. I’m constantly watching videos and learning different things. And, it’s still, you know, I mean, I see a picture of a set of drums I want to zoom in on. Oh, look at that. It’s still the same kind of thing. Oh, look at the shiny drums and the shiny symbols. And it’s still the same for me, which is amazing that I still have the drive and the passion one, hundred years later.

Steve Cuden: I don’t know why, but in the last few years, I found myself fascinated over and over again on YouTube by various drum videos of drummers, especially some of the old ones, like Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa and so on. Some of that stuff is like, holy mackerel, how are they doing that? You know? But then I watch you, it’s not dissimilar because you’re banging away pretty hard, too.

Carl Canedy: Buddy Rich is still my all time favorite. I have a million drummers. I love everyone from Ringo to, whomever. But, Buddy Rich is still my guy because he combined the technical and he was very explosive to say the least. Right? And that was just, plus he had a great, he was a great showman.

Steve Cuden: So, doc, how did you two meet? How did this happen?

Philip “Doc” Harrington: So I approached Carl and begged, him to do his memoirs or to do an autobiography. I’m a huge fan of rock bios and autobiographies, and if it’s out there, I listen to it. but I noticed that a lot of them are very, very similar or similar story You know, the band, the first band, the humble beginnings, the rise to fame, the hit album, the money, the excess, the drugs. The band breaks up rehab. Drugs, rehab.

Steve Cuden: Well, it is called sex, drugs and rock and roll.

Philip “Doc” Harrington: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, it’s it. Many of them become very predictable. You know, about halfway through, you could kind of tell where it’s gonna go. And I knew of Carl, I’ve heard him on a few podcasts. I’m a huge broads fan, but he was one of the few guys that is out there. He’s in the band and he’s also producing, ah, just what he produced. I mean, if you take my, like, top ten albums, Carl’s name is on almost all, either performing or producing. And, you know, I kept telling my wife, like, man, ah, this guy needs to write a book. Like, so we could hear both sides. You get the production side. And she just says, why don’t you ask him? And so I reached out and asked him.

Steve Cuden: It was that easy. It was just that easy.

Philip “Doc” Harrington: That, well, he responded and, he was on the fence about it. He’s like, you know, I don’t know, it seems, you know, it’s a little self centered to get into all that. And, so he said, you know what, let’s give it a try. Let’s just do a couple chapters. We’ll see how it goes, we’ll see how it feels. And, he sent me some recordings and I think we did about four chapters to start. And then, he said, yeah, let’s do it. Let’s go ahead and do the whole thing.

Steve Cuden: Well, from everything I’ve read, especially the book and other material, I’ve looked at Carl, you impress me as being one of the most modest stars I’ve ever read about. You don’t seem to be explosively out there. Unlike you’re drumming as a person, you’re more resigned in the background a little bit. Is that right?

Carl Canedy: yeah, I would say that’s correct. I mean, I think as I look at my career, I think that, I’ve always been really put off by people I’ve met in the business who just want to tell you how great they are. And it’s almost. For me, it’s almost like being pummeled because of the, oh, you know, I’m so great, and I did this, and they can’t get it out fast enough. You’re like, well, okay, I’m impressed, but I don’t even know what to say. After a while, it’s like, okay, great, you’re phenomenal. What do you want me to say? And I’m not going to polish your car. So, you know, I just have hated that, really. just, disliked it. My daughter, who’s a music teacher, and she’s a real musician compared to me. but she and I both talk about how we’ll meet somebody together and they will just go off about, they’ll just pour technical on us and tell us all these things they’ve done and their performances, and they’re this and they’re that, and we get done and we think, wow, I didn’t want to say anything because they must be amazing now when that happens, because as time has gone on, we have. We’ve then witnessed their performance or their talent. Now, when, we have someone who does that to us, we both look at each other and later we’ll say, I’ll bet they’re pretty average. And 99 out of 100 times, they are very average, but they’re great at telling you how fantastic they are. I just never found that something I was comfortable doing. I do think now that I look back at my career, I should have had a publicist early on in my career. I should have made more moves to make myself more higher profile. When I was producing, I didn’t have that. Nobody even knew how to get a hold of me. So, you know, in retrospect, I should have been more that way, but I’ve never been that guy, so. But if you like, I’m happy to brag right now.

Steve Cuden: You’ve written your autobiography. That’s a kind of bragging. It’s a humble brag, but it’s a kind of bragging.

Carl Canedy: It certainly is. Yeah.

Steve Cuden: You say that your daughter is the real musician after, you know, at least two or three years of yourself being in the business, why do you say she’s the real musician? What does she do that’s different than you?

Carl Canedy: She has my friend Andrew, Duck MacDonald, and he and I wrote the songs on this Thrasher album that we’ve done that. I’ve just had a remix done by Nate Horton, and it’s really good. I’m excited for people to hear it. Duck said to me, duck can play big band guitar. He can play heavy metal guitar, he can play country, he can play anything and play it at a top, top level. He’s phenomenal. But he said to me one day, we were talking. We were talking about some musician, Gary Driscoll, who played in Rainbow, how Gary was such a natural drummer. Like, he just poured out of him. He didn’t really practice. he just was brilliant musician. And Duck said to me, and Duck was a very dry sense of humor, but he said, you know, you and I are at that level, but we had to work for it. And it’s true. I mean, I think, you know, my daughter is now, she has a daughter, and so she was listening. We were listening to this music my granddaughter was listening to, and my daughter walks over to the piano and just starts playing it. She missed one note playing it. She can hear a note and play it on the piano. It will tell you what it is. I remember in early high school, she said to me, in course, she goes, you know, I can open the book now and I can actually sight read without the music. I know where the notes are and I can do that. So she is incredibly talented that way. She has an identic memory for melody and for lyrics. It’s unreal. And, you know, I don’t have that. I have, you know, if I’m playing a drum part, I have to work it out and play, oh, that sucked. I better try it again. And, you know, and I suffer with the fact that I’m a perfectionist with hackability.

Steve Cuden: What does that mean?

Carl Canedy & Phillip Harrington: It means that I hear things that I want to play. I’m like, yeah, that’s a cool part. And then I can’t execute it very well. I have to practice it over and play and work on it. It just doesn’t come that naturally to me. And I. And I suppose in a sense, I’m being modest because I do come up with some parts that are kind of cool, but it’s not like some people who are just, they just get it immediately and play the cool parts.

Steve Cuden: Do you work with a lot of people who just come in and just nail it and they don’t even have to think twice.

Carl Canedy: Yes, I produced some musicians like that. I’ve also caused a lot of sadness in some musicians when they come in. And, you know, there have been a couple who I’ve had to say to the band, I don’t know what to tell you now. It’s not Acme school of music. We’re in the recording studio. It’s expensive. We don’t have a ton of time, and we don’t have time for them to bring it up to speed. And they’ve fired musicians as a result. And I felt badly about it. And those musicians have been kind to me about that, like, yeah, I just wasn’t ready. But I try to work with them and try to help them, but, sometimes they don’t get it and they haven’t gotten it. So you really have to call it for the sake of the band.

Steve Cuden: Well, maybe you should set it up like the academy school of Music and put an envelope above the bandaid.

Carl Canedy: Uh-huh.

Steve Cuden: And if it’s not working, just drop the anvil. You’re good to go.

Carl Canedy: By the same token, I produced, like, a year and a half ago or so. coming up on two years, adam and the Metalhawks, I produced a Christmas song for them. And, they’re such a talented group of guys, nicest guys, and so talented. And the guitarists were playing, and I actually showed him something on the guitar and I noticed that he wasn’t really well versed in the notes. And I said, so, but I said, your timing is flawless. I go, where did you, like, who do you take lessons from? What? Sorry. He said he learned first from. What is it? Band?

Steve Cuden: Garageband.

Carl Canedy: Garageband. He learned from that, which, of course, it’s amazing to have to play in time. All those notes and the rest is YouTube videos, and he’s phenomenal. But his timing was Perfect. And anything I asked him to do, try this part. He had ideas, was so quick, and, you know, so there’s a guy who never took a guitar lesson, is incredibly talented.

Steve Cuden: Did you take lessons as a kid?

Carl Canedy: I started taking drum lessons when I got my drum set. I went to Knapp school of music, and I wish I could remember his name. He’s probably dead. He wasn’t that much older than I am, but who knows? But I would love to see him and talk to him. He would come to my house, actually, after a while and study, with him, and he would basically tell me how I sucked. I sucked. I was bad like that. Terrible. You’re never going to be a good drummer. And he would beat me up verbally. And I remember being the National association of Rudimental Drummers. He was a Nard drummer. And so I was like, wow. And I said to him, I was 13. I’m like, do you think someday I could be a nard drummer? Very naive question, but he goes, no. No way. So when I got my nad certification, I was just beside myself with happiness. I’m like, yeah, screw you, pal. But he was just brutal, that guy. So after a while, because I’m not the smartest guy, after a while, I thought, why am I paying him every week? And so that was it. I didn’t take lessons again until I was 20, maybe 21, I can’t remember exactly. But with Carmine Appis, he had an ad in the musicians union paper that he was taking lessons. And so I called the number. I’m like, wow, that’s fantastic. Because he was my favorite drummer. Like, I idolized Carmine.

Steve Cuden: Tell the listeners who Carl Appice.

Carl Canedy: Carmine Appice has played with the vanilla fudge, which is where I first saw him on Ed Sullivan, which is a really amazing show for all the young listeners out there. But he also played with Rod Stewart. He co wrote do you think I’m sexy? By Rod Stewart. He’s played with Cactus, he’s played with Pink Floyd. He’s played with so many as a session drummer and in bands Blue Murder, so many bands Beck, Bogart and Apacy, with Jeff Beck. And, so he was just a well known drummer and phenomenal drummer and a great showman. So I call that number and I say, hi, may I speak with, ah, I’m calling about drum lessons. Carmine APIs is apparently giving drum lessons, and I’m very interested. He goes, this is Carmine. And I was just like, whoa, I’m talking to my hero on the phone. So studying with Carmine really changed, and I owe him this. I was just talking to my friend Jim Crean, who works with carmine. He’s in two bands with carmine about how carmine, it just changed my drumming Life. He taught me to read music, which I’m still pretty iffy at, but he taught me to read music. But he taught me some valuable lessons and that were so important to me. one was, and this kind of goes back to what you would, a question you would ask about the passion of it. There was a kid taking lessons and all he wanted to do was play fast. And I took double lessons. So I’m listening this whole time. Well, I just want to play fast. Well, he goes, well, you have to kind of get the fundamental. I just want to play fast. We need the fundamentals. So I was talking to Carmine when it was my turn. Take the lessons, and he said, if you’re playing because you want to get laid, you want to get rich, you want to get famous, you’re playing for the wrong reasons. If you play because you love it, you’ll have it your whole life. And here I am, and I love it, and I’ve had it my whole life. And more, and more as I look back on, it was the best thing that could have happened to me.

Steve Cuden: Indeed, indeed.

Carl Canedy: But I found the right guy. Carmen is a great educator, and, so it was really the right time for me. And he taught me how to keep the bad habits that were okay and how to lose the bad habits that I didn’t need. And that was huge.

Steve Cuden: That’s a very important lesson in almost anything in Life. If you can figure out what works and doesn’t work, it doesn’t matter whether it’s pretty or anything. If it works, it works.

Carl Canedy: Absolutely.

Steve Cuden: And some people are very smart and talented and can do one thing or another, but they may have flaws, but those flaws make them unique.

Carl Canedy: Totally. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Cuden: So let’s talk about the book a little bit, doc. Tell the listeners. We already know it’s Carl’s memoir, his autobiography. Tell the listeners what’s in the book. What’s the book about? What do you focus on, and how did you lay it out?

Philip “Doc” Harrington: Well, I think the first part that was unique was we opened it up for a lot of commentary. You know, when initially, when Carl and I, we discussed it, he was a little hesitant. He just said, you know, it seems a little. A lot of those are self centered and egotistical. And he says, and that’s not me. And I said, what if we open it up to people that were part of the story and we get their take on it? And he says, I like that. And I said, but I said it could backfire. They could say, you know, something really terrible. And, when you had asked earlier if it’s, you know, is him being humble, is that, you know, come from a real place. It’s real, because he says, I don’t care what they say about me. If it’s the worst thing in the world, he says, do not take it out. Don’t edit it, leave it in. And he didn’t look at any of them initially. He wasn’t worried about like, did they say this? Did they say that? He just said, let’s put it in. He totally trusted the people to give their opinion. So that was pretty unique. You don’t read that in a lot of autobiographies. And there are a few times where it doesn’t contradict what he said, but it was a different version. And I think that’s what makes it really interesting. You see two different perspectives on an issue. And there were people in the book that, you know, the manager, they had an issue with and Carl, you know, and the guys fired him. So there’s a little bit of, and they hadn’t spoken since 1980. 319 84. So there’s a little, it wasn’t, you know, animosity or anger, but they just didn’t talk. And, I said, carl, I’d love to get a story but you know what might not be nice. And Carl says, yeah, get it. I don’t care, let’s do it. Because he’s gonna, he’s gonna say what he means. And he did. And he gave us quite a few pages. We interviewed him. And Carl’s like, yeah, that’s pretty good. It was just really cool to see that you get the whole piece in there. So.

Steve Cuden: Well, heavy metal, and Carl, you correct me if I’m wrong, is about force and sound and power and all those things. And that’s what I think you are expressing, doc, to go do is full force. Let it happen, let it ride. It’s got an edge to it. Let it have an edge, which is what is, is in heavy metal.

Carl Canedy: Yes, absolutely. And the thing was that, doc interviewed one person and then I was like, that, that was such a brilliant idea. I mean, doc came up with such a unique idea to interview people, but I honestly have yet to read all of the, all the commentary I have. I didn’t read it during the process because I felt that I made that pact with Doc. I said, I’m not changing any words. They can say whatever crap they want to say about me, I’m totally fine with it because I felt that at this point in my career, it’s not going to hurt either way, but if that’s their story and, they want that voice, it’s fine. And I was good with that. But I thought if I read it and let’s say I read something and it touches a nerve and I’m like, oh, wait, I don’t know if I want that out. That’s exposing too much or whatever, it makes me feel a little uncomfortable. Casts me in a light I’m not comfortable with. I thought, I’m not going to read it because then I’m not tempted. It’s in there. They’ve had their chance to say what they want and it’s not edited. And the other thing was, I had talked crap about our manager. I think it’s fair to say that there are always two sides. And in this situation, I didn’t feel there were two sides. I felt that there was my side and the band side. And that was the only side. And Peter had. He had things to say. And I know Phil reached out to him and handled it very delicately. And convinced Peter to actually weigh in. Because Peter was bitter about what I had said in the press over the years. And reading it somewhat changed my perspective because I realized that he did a lot of really good things for us. And it changed my perspective. And I was able to acknowledge that to him. And, that was something that was kind of good. It gave me peace. I’m always at this point in my Life, in my mind, I will always say to myself, resolve all conflict. You don’t need it. You don’t need it in Life. Resolve that conflict. And it gave me a chance to resolve that. So I don’t walk around with any ill will or bitterness toward Peter or whatever. I’m like, yeah, I get it. You did your best and can’t ask for more than that.

Steve Cuden: I don’t think I can recall reading anything in the book that was, like, horrific or horrible or mean or nasty. It might have had a little bit of a, tiny bit of bitterness to it, but there was nothing that was just flat out angry or ticked off at you or anything like that. People were highly, highly complimentary. And it is interesting. The book is a great reflection on what happens to young artists as you’re going through the process of becoming. And as that goes on, you’re learning at the same time. And things happen. Stuff happens. And, And I think the book is a fantastic. Has a set of fantastic object lessons in it. This is what happened. This is how you get through it. This is what we went through. It was not pleasant. We stayed in lousy places, we played in lousy places. But we came out of the other end of it having grown and learned and become. I think that’s what the book does outstandingly. So I’m curious, Doc, what do you think, because you spent a, How much time did you take to write this? How long did it take to write the book?

Philip “Doc” Harrington: We spent a couple years couple years.

Carl Canedy & Phillip Harrington: I thought it was going to be two months. I’m like oh, I get tacos. Listen, you dictate it, I’ll transcribe it. And m, I’m like oh man, this is going to be a piece of cake. I would just get my phone and I, I just go through chapter, here’s a chapter title. And I just, and I’m like, it’ll be two months and it’ll be done. And it was no, as he said, doc said two years. Go ahead. Sorry to interrupt.

Steve Cuden: There’s no such thing as a book taking two months. Not even Steven King turns him out in two months, you know. So I’m curious Doc, what makes, from your perspective, what makes Carl’s story so unique?

Philip “Doc” Harrington: Well, conflict, of course. All good stories have conflict resolution. And there’s plenty of that. whether he was growing up, you know, the band starting out, him going out West looking for ah, another gig, you know, down to the recording studio and you know, the troubles with some of those bandst, there’s just conflict constantly throughout it and then it’s resolved and then he moves on to the next. I think what makes it different is Carl’s approach to Life and who he is as a person. There’s, you know, you had mentioned sex, drugs and rock and roll and that’s usually what I read. So there wasn’t a lot of it in there. It was all, you know, he is very focused on the product.

Steve Cuden: No, in fact, Carl talks about in the book, about he’s avoided his entire career ever being stoned, high, drunk, whatever, for performance. Yeah, which I find fascinating.

Philip “Doc” Harrington: And I asked him, I said, Carl, we got to talk about drugs, sex, drugs and rock and roll. Like what? I mean, we can’t just skip over it. He’s like, yeah, sure, let’s, and he sent some voice clips and some stories and I said, yep, that’ll do.

Carl Canedy: So we’re, and that was the extent of it. I’ve never been drunk. And you know, a few times.

Steve Cuden: But I bet you’ve been around a Few people that were.

Carl Canedy: you know, I’ve, Steve, I’ve been around so many musicians who have been, and in bands like, I remember recording the Colacus album and I didn’t realize that a couple of the guys were doing coke, they would go off, they come back and I didn’t, I didn’t realize, I didn’t know what that was about. I wasn’t into it. It was kind of a new thing in the mid to late seventies and I just wasn’t aware. And then sometimes people would get stoned. And I’ve always been really irritated playing in a band with people who are stoned because you’re on a different wavelength. It’s not that I. Nothing wrong with getting stoned. If we’re all stoned, then let’s jam. But if we’re not all stoned, and I’m serious about playing, and you’re just like, hey, man, let’s just play a groove, man. It doesn’t matter if it’s not quite tight enough, dude, it’s cool you getting so uptight about, then I’m like, yeah, I’m not into that. And so, I will try to avoid that. And that’s one of the things I can say about the rods. nobody in the band drank, did drugs. We would get up and go bowling. They would be cut off t shirts and long hair and looking like homeless people. And we go to the golf course because Gary and David are avid golfers. Both of them are very, very good. And so we. And I was horrible. But we go to the golf course and, they would people just be like, jaws dropping, like, oh, my God, are these guys going to be picking up the trash on the course? What are they doing out here? But that’s what we do. We go bowling, we go sightseeing. We do. But it was nice because we were all on the same page. Nobody was going to get drunk or Crazy.

Steve Cuden: So I’ll ask Doc first, were there any eureka moments that you came across something, somebody said something, gave you feedback, and you went, holy mackerel, this is completely unique. It’s Eureka. We found something really cool.

Phillip Harrington: Yes a lot of that. There was some of that through the commentary. The big one to me was, and this. Carl wasn’t there for it. but he had told me when I was, speaking with Neil turban, but neil turbin of anthrax smashed some hostess ding dongs in Dan Loker’s face, which with that camp, there’s still kind of. I, don’t want to say they. I don’t know what the relationship is, but Neil had fired, Danny. So there’s a little bit of. A little bit something there. So that was the one that I was like, wow, okay, but it’s a good story

Steve Cuden: So, well, if you’re gonna smash something in someone’s face, it shouldn’t be a ding dong. Carl, were there any eureka moments for you? Like, where’d this come from?

Carl Canedy: I don’t remember this or something like that. there were things, and I can’t pinpoint them now, but there were things that, as time went on, it’s a different way of looking when you’re doing this. I wanted to do this for my daughter, and I thought, if it gets published, great. If it doesn’t, I’ll have the audio files for my daughter. And that was the main focus, because she used to say to me, the stories of your early life are so sad. And I’m like, I don’t want her to go through Life thinking for me to die. I go, yeah, I would think my dad had a horrible. His life. Like, my childhood wasn’t great, but we worked through it. So looking back on my life, it just was, There were things that gave me a perspective I’d never had before. So it was kind of cool to see that stepping away from it and viewing my life objectively like somebody you know, that’s not me. That’s just. Oh, that’s what happened. It was interesting.

Steve Cuden: Well, you chose to let doc write the book. I assume he did most of the heavy lifting.

Carl Canedy: He did, absolutely did the heavy lifting. One of the things I did, my stories, dictated my stories. We had a couple of little rubs along the way, because if they weren’t my words, then we would have to go back and we would have to. And there’s one thing that we laugh about, which is Doc had changed something I said to copious tears, and I’m like, there’s no way in my life I’ve ever said copious tears. That’s got to go. And, So we had some of the transcription things going on that like, I can’t do it. We got it. So we had to correct certain things, and that took some time, but we got past it. We never had any real arguments about it.

Steve Cuden: You needed it to be in your voice.

Carl Canedy: Absolutely. Those. They needed to be my words and my story But by the same token, he was really instrumental in. It has to be an interesting read. It must be interesting. It must flow as a book. And he had his eye on the ball the whole time about, well, this might not work because we want to keep it flowing through the chapters this way. And he really was set on, This is going to have to. We need it to be a book that flows and is an entire book. When you finish reading this, you’ve read a book and there’s no. Just little bits and pieces and just kind of strung together. We want this story to be told through the entire book. And so the reader at the end of the book has coming to some kind of a climax that makes sense and leaves them with like, wow, this was a good read.

Steve Cuden: So I’m assuming, doc, you started out without an outline. You didn’t know where you were going to begin, is that correct?

Philip “Doc” Harrington: Correct. I knew the highlights of his musical career, but that was all I knew. I knew about the rods. I knew about the kennedy albums and his production efforts. I knew nothing else about him. And he had given me a few clips, voice clips, but, each clip was a subject, so. And those were early childhood clips. And I said, okay, well, that’s, that’s Perfect. Let’s start. Let’s talk about your parents. And he’d send me a clip on his parents, and we took it from there. But while we were doing that, we were also interviewing people. I’d see something, hey, ah, we’re going to need a chapter on this. He’d send a clip right away. So there’s a lot of juggling, because we were working with so many different elements and in time periods, to lay it all out. The real hard part was, you know, I think in a normal autobiography, it’s most people, or famous people, they focus on one primary thing. But Carl went from, you know, the Rods well, the previous bands, the Rods production, owning the studio, the children’s theater, the solo band, there’s a lot in there. And to figure out, we probably had about 100 extra pages we had to take out just so that it would, everything would fit in, you know, sellable book.

Steve Cuden: Well, that’s a nice gift. It’s always easier to take stuff away than try to pad it out. And the fact that you had stuff to remove means that you had a wealth of great stuff to begin with.

Philip “Doc” Harrington: Yeah, we probably could have done another hundred pages beyond that. I personally thought it was very difficult to remove the pages, and eventually.

Steve Cuden: Well, it is difficult.

Phillip Harrington: Eventually I had. I just left it to doc to take them out, because I was. I like, this will make me Crazy, because, oh, we’ve got to have this in. He’s like, you know what? We’re going to have to. We don’t really need that piece in. Whereas I was attached to it, and I want that piece in, like, well, we can’t have it. I was like a little, little kid in the store with a toy. Like, you can’t take that home car. What? I want to take that.

Steve Cuden: William Faulkner famously said, you have to be willing to kill your darlings. And that’s what he’s talking about where you have to go in and take out the stuff that’s the most precious to you because it may not actually help the book, and it’s all about the totality of the book, not the, individual pieces and parts.

Carl Canedy: Right. And Doc was really good about making sure that we stayed on track with it, and I didn’t meander often.

Steve Cuden: Are you also, Carl, a chef? Are you a cook like doc has training?

Carl Canedy: I am not, but I am very interested in, devouring some of the things that he sends me photos of. And so he does for some reason, he’ll do some kind of opening and he’ll have a huge grill with all kinds of meats on it. And it just looks fantastic. And, I’ve yet to taste it, but I’m going to. I want him to cook barbecue for me, and I don’t eat barbecue very often. I’m not much of a red meat eater, but, man, the stuff he’s done looks phenomenal.

Steve Cuden: Well, you know, if you have that talent, everyone will enjoy your work. There’s no question. There won’t be anything left. Do you think? Ah, doc, there are similarities between the Life of being a cook, a chef, however you want to call yourself, and being a writer. Are there similarities in the way you’re preparing things?

Philip “Doc” Harrington: I would say no.

Steve Cuden: They’re very different.

Philip “Doc” Harrington: Very different. So when deal with food, or especially when you’re in the kitchens or you’re in restaurants, it’s very fast paced. You don’t have time to sit down and, you know, contemplate or think. your, your headspace is production. You know, finishing production almost to the point that you become very robotic. Because robotic means consistency, where writing and, yeah, I write technically for a living. Writing’s different. And that’s where I had a hard, really struggle. You know, I tend to write very technically. I want to be technical, and that’s incredibly boring.

Steve Cuden: Well, that’s similar to music, isn’t it, Carl, that, you know, if you’re very technical, that can be boring. It needs to have a little bit of something in it, a little bit of Zotz in it.

Carl Canedy: It’s a fine line. Just like he’s saying, you know, it’s a fine line in music. You have to be like very precise. And so many musicians have said to me, you know, Carl hears things we don’t hear. And, because I’m focused on the total, but I’m also dealing with the minutiae, so it’s definitely something you have to do but at the same time, you have to. The end product has to be fun and cool and just like, you know, the end product has to taste great, which, that barbecue looks phenomenal.

Steve Cuden: Well, that’s it. And if something can sound right, it can sound like it’s Perfect, but there’s no passion or heart in it. And you can tell. I’m, fascinated. In the book you talk about that you have always been an empath. So tell the listeners, first of all, what is an empath? And then let us know how, if so, that that’s helped you in your career.

Carl Canedy: Well, that’s interesting. I don’t know if I want to define empath, but I’ve always been incredibly sensitive, and I’ve always been able to. I remember at, I mean, so many things that I didn’t even put in the book. Instances where I remember meeting Mr Morrell. My mother and I moved to an apartment when I was in third grade. And I remember meeting Mr Morrell, and everybody said, he’s so much fun. He’s such a nice guy. He’s a wonderful man. I shook his hand, and I immediately felt this sadness that this was a sad, lonely mandehead. And, you know, I mean, I didn’t think anything of that. I had no idea. I was a kid. I was in third grade. What did I know about sad, lonely old man? But I used to go play rummy with him in his apartment. And he used to leave the stove on. It was a gas stove. And I always remember that smell because he was cold. And so he would use the burners on to keep warmth in his apartment. Wow. But I’ve always had that sensitivity. I’ve always been, and my friends have said this, we’ll meet somebody, and, they’ll be, wow, this is the coolest guy, or whatever, and I’ll go, yeah, I don’t get the vibe, you know, I don’t. I get a bad feeling or whatever. And my friends will say, felix, there’s no way you’re wrong this time. Carl and my friends say, 99 times out of ten out of 100, Carl’s dead on. So if he says it, you better listen to him. Take it with what it’s worth.

Steve Cuden: So you’re feeling it. It’s feelings for you.

Carl Canedy: Feelings. It’s a sensitivity too. It’s something that I get. Like, when my mother was dying, I had no clue. She didn’t know. Doctor didn’t know. I didn’t know. But we were finishing the wild, working on the Wild Dogs album, writing the material, and I remember playing a gig and we were all sitting around a big table, but what would happen to me is I would get this cold feeling over me and I would say, I’m going to die before the album is finished. And we’d all laugh about it, like the guys, like, well, you know, I’d written half the songs on the album. Don’t worry, we’ll take credit for all your songs. But it would just be this cold thing that would come over me. And I had a number of those types of things, in my life, so whatever that is, I don’t really know. But, I definitely have that sensitivity. And my daughter seems to have a good read on people as well, some sensitivity to it. So I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s hereditary.

Steve Cuden: Has it helped you as a producer, where you can tell how things are going to go in the studio?

Carl Canedy: There’s nothing to predict that it’s helped me predict, but one of the things it does is just like, so many professions, it’s helped me in real estate. I will say that because in the studio, you basically have to be a therapist. You have to understand each artist and what they’re doing and how they’re doing it and what their approach is. And sometimes people are struggling, but they don’t show that they’re struggling. Sometimes people are outwardly attacking people or things or situations, but it’s really their struggle, and they need to have somebody help them a little bit. And, I know Frank Bellow talks about it in his book, how I gave him a shot and he was so scared, and I gave him. I tried to buy these young musicians time in the studio, and I gave him a shot. I don’t remember ever giving him a shot, but that’s what he remembers, and that’s fine. But I did try to relax him and just say, chill out. And you have to identify, each person is different. We’re all different. So you have to almost be a therapist in the studio. Some people you have to be tough with, some people you have to be extra sensitive with, and you have to be tuned into all of that.

Steve Cuden: Well, it’s like being a director on a motion picture or a tv show or a stage play. You’re going to have to be somewhat of a psychologist, somewhat of a therapist, and hold hands to a degree, and I assume as a producer in a studio, that’s true, too. You’re going to hold some hands over time and try to work with people to get them out of whatever their own issue is.

Carl Canedy: Exactly. Try to get the best out of them and, you know, help them get out of their own way sometimes.

Steve Cuden: Do you find that that helped you in terms of working on the book with Doc? I don’t mean as in your, you know, reading him or something, but did that help you to shape what you wanted expressed?

Phillip Harrington: I think with Doc, what it was, was I’d had, in fact, the closest I came to doing book and a number of interviews were always like, you’ve got to write a book. And a couple people talked about it, helping me, and one russian writer did a very long article on me. And I’m like, you know, maybe he’s the guy. And then we talked about the time difference in the fact that the language barrier. But with Doc, I felt at first I was unsure, like, you know, who’s this guy? And talking with my attorney and talking about this and that. And, but as I got to know him, I was very comfortable with him and I trusted him completely and that allowed me to, when I was dictating things, like there were times when, I’m sure you remember, Doc, all the times that times I would be recalling something and of my childhood in particular, and I would be overcome with emotion because things would come flooding back and I was being very open and honest. If he weren’t the person he is, I wouldn’t have been able to do that.

Steve Cuden: What do you mean?

Carl Canedy: Well, I wouldn’t have been able to. I would have deleted that file. I wouldn’t have said, well, I’m here. I am starting to cry. I’m getting very upset. I’m opening up about things in my childhood that were tough for me. And, I wouldn’t have been able to. I would have said, delete, goodbye. No one’s ever going to hear this. But because I trusted him, I was able to send it to him. Even though I’m crying through part of the story and I become overwhelmed sometimes. I would just get so choked up in the middle of it. But I carried on and I trusted him to take those files and deal, with it, and he did.

Steve Cuden: Doc, were you able to get that sort of sensitivity on paper somehow? Were you able to, translate that?

Philip “Doc” Harrington: Yeah, we tried to convey that emotion as much as possible because it was, I mean, it was very evident. He was, you know, it was physically upsetting him and I felt bad, like, oh, man, here’s my, my hero, you know, I, this big tough guy. And he’s like, this is, this is really affecting him. but that also makes for good writing. so we tried to keep as much of that.

Steve Cuden: You need that emotion, don’t you?

Philip “Doc” Harrington: Yeah. Yeah. You really need the conflict and emotion. And he has a good way of looking at the world and looking at people and looking at unfortunate incidents. You know, to me, that was. That was really important because I’m a little, you know, I’m sensitive to, or I like, at least I think I am. and it’s. It can be tough, you know, when you’re a guy and you’re a little sensitive of something. but then I saw him like, wow, he, he went through all of that. but he just has such a really positive way of looking at things. so I knew there was recovery in there. There’s conflict, emotion, but I knew the end of the story was going to be a happy one.

Steve Cuden: I’m going to ask each of you the same question. It’s a question I love to ask guests because I always get interesting perspectives. I’ll ask Doc first, and then we’ll go to Carl. So, doc, when you listen to the rods or to heavy metal or to any other kind of music that you like to listen to, what for you makes a Good song Good? Why is it Good for you? What happens to that material that says to you, this is good or great?

Philip “Doc” Harrington: So it would be the vibe. The, vibe starts with the riff that sets the tone, and the chorus needs to be big, and, the words need to match the riff. That’s all in the vibe. That’s the attitude, the feeling, the emotion in it. And to me, that’s what, when I discovered the rods, when I got my first Brad’s album, that was it. The vibe was just straightforward rock and roll, nuts and bolts. no frills. No. You know, these guys were. They looked and just like the songs.

Steve Cuden: What a great way to say that. They looked like the songs. That’s fantastic.

Philip “Doc” Harrington: I mean, straightforward, no nonsense jeans, t shirt, long hair they weren’t wearing, makeup, they weren’t wearing. And that’s their songs. Their songs are just. The vibe is they don’t mess around. There’s no, you know, they don’t sit there in the studio and add all the effects and bring in the kazoos and the, It’s just pure rock and roll.

Steve Cuden: Oh, you’re telling me the heavy metal didn’t have kazoos in it?

Phillip Harrington: It’s cleverly disguised.

Steve Cuden: Cleverly disguised kazoos. So, Carl, what makes a great song great or Good song Good for you? What is it that happens for you?

Carl Canedy: Well, that’s an amazingly complex question. sometimes it’s exactly what Doc said, where it is just suddenly hits you, punches you in the gut, and it’s got a big chorus, like, the groove is solid and the riff is solid, and then when it hits the chorus, it explodes, and it’s like, okay, that’s totally cool. But there are songs, like, in some of my favorite songs that I play repeatedly. it’s all about soul. Billy Joel, for example. Elton Jon. This train don’t stop here anymore. I’m, trying to think of some of the other. Oh, Mick Jagger’s don’t call me up. Mick Jagger has another song. I can’t think of the title now, but those songs, they have such power and emotion in them, and so that makes it a great song for me. So there are a number of levels. And I know for me, when I record, once we got into the digital world, I’ve had people early on take my drum tracks, and I would listen back and say, that’s not what I played. Let’s move. Like, I don’t. That’s not my groove. Because they would say, let’s move his bass drum a little bit. To master guitar player, who was a little bit off. And I now insist I will play a drum track. When I do anything for other people, I want my drum tracks. I do it from the beginning to the end. I don’t care that there are little things in it. I want that. That’s style, and I’m good with that. And if it’s not good, don’t change anything. I’ll replay it if it’s not what you were looking for. And of course, I can play to the click track now after all these years, I’m pretty solid on the click track, so it shouldn’t be any timing issue. It’s basically about parts. If that’s the case and nobody sends it back now, but they certainly could, and that’s what I tell them. I want that raw feeling when you hear the song, that you want to hear the emotion of what I was playing. And otherwise, I can program drums. I can just save myself working up a sweat. I just program the drum part, which is what a lot of people do now. And I remember Sully Erna, they called him out on and said, well, this is all programming. He goes, but I can play it. But it’s not the point. You didn’t play it. You programmed it.

Steve Cuden: I think you used the key word in there, which is raw. That’s what is for sure there with the rods, it’s for sure with most of the heavy metal groups you’ve produced. It’s raw. It’s not. Doesn’t feel slick or overly curated. It feels really raw. And I think that’s the really key word. How important Carl is, finding a hook in a song to making it work.

Carl Canedy: Well, that’s critical. I mean, it’s all about the songs. It doesn’t matter how great you are as a musician, how cleverly the song is arranged and performed. If you don’t have a hook, you go nowhere. If the song doesn’t stand on its own. And I remember years ago, somebody in the music business said, you know, if you can’t play it on an acoustic guitar and it’s still a great song, maybe it’s not a great song and there’s something to that. Absolutely. You know, you strip it all away and you sing it with a guitar, one voice, one guitar, playing the riffs, and the song still works, then, okay, you got something. And if it’s.

Steve Cuden: It has to have at least a melody in there.

Carl Canedy: So a melody has to have a hook. Something makes you want to hear it again, so you can lather it up as much as you like, you can layer it with every kind of trick and hook and gimmick, and I’ve been guilty of that. But one thing I have been, my m whole as producer has been to capture the energy of the band and make it real and capture what that band, the essence of that band, trying to capture that energy, which is not always easy to get them all on the same page, because sometimes they’re new and the studio is a microscope and they’re not used to that. Like, you know, when you’re playing bass, all your notes connect. When you’re in the studio, you stop a note a fraction of a second early. Now it’s left a little hole, and, oh, I never knew that. Which can be. Then you’re suddenly you’re so self conscious, and so then you’ve got to get them past that. So it’s tough working with young musicians, but more and more young musicians are so tuned in now because YouTube has just changed the world for musicians.

Steve Cuden: Doc, I’m curious. You’ve obviously now had a book published and you worked with the publisher, and I’m curious if you can lend any advice to those that are trying to figure out how to get published. Any advice toward what it is to work with a publisher and how best to approach that?

Philip “Doc” Harrington: Well, don’t give up. I think we had sent out quite a few sample drafts. But this only publisher I really have experience with. But Teddy has been fantastic. so I. I would say if you’re having issues, start with a smaller publisher. I mean, Teddy at New Haven, we can contact her. We call her, we can email her. She always answers. She always gives us good advice.

Steve Cuden: We’re talking about the great Teddy Dolan.

Philip “Doc” Harrington: Yeah. Fantastic. She guides us. and she’s very honest with us. She doesn’t sugarcoat anything. She tells it like it is. so she has been absolutely fantastic. And so if you’re hoping to get published, start with someone small. It’s been absolutely fantastic at New Haven for us.

Steve Cuden: Well, I’ve been having one of the most fun conversations I’ve had in some time, for almost an hour now with two of the very best in the business. This is Doc Harrington and Carl Kennedy. And we’re going to wrap the show up just a little bit now. And I’m just wondering, Carl, and all of your experiences, your major experiences around the world, can you share with us a story that’s either weird, quirky, offbeat, or just plain funny? More than what you’ve already told us, because you’ve told us a bunch of great ones.

Carl Canedy: I have so many stories. And, the only one I thought, well, I’ll tell this story I don’t always tell this story When the rods played throughout Europe with Iron Maiden in 82, we did 28, 30 dates. I don’t know. Doc knows. He knows all the dates and all the things I don’t even remember, but we played all those dates, and at the end, we played the marquee club. Marquee club. Legendary for me. Ten years after I had a live at the marquee, the Stones. There’s so many bands that had this live at the marquee club. So I was listening to those things when I was starting out, and, oh, wow, this marquee club must be amazing. And it was legendary. And all the. The who played there, and they would see a picture every now and then about the wall where everybody, all these famous bands signed. All my favorite bands signed. We sell out the Marquee club, which I was thrilled about. And so we go there and we’re performing, and you have to kind of understand that the marquee has a dressing room. So right behind my drums was a door. Go to the dressing room. And they had par 64s, which are thousand watt bulbs, right? You know exactly what I’m talking about, how much heat they generate.

Steve Cuden: I know exactly what you.

Carl Canedy: And now we’re talking from. They were literally like 2ft above my head because it’s a, it’s a small club, so they had a ton of them in there. And my, my rims for soundcheck, I couldn’t touch my rim for more than a second. That’s how hot my rims were. They were on fire. So we go on, we’re performing and it’s just, we’re having a ball. In fact, I’m going to release the live at the marquee recordings I did for that show. It’ll finally see the light of day, some point here in the future. So now David’s doing his guitar solo and I’m drenched. It’s like I’ve been in a sauna, it’s so hot. So I run back into the dressing room to get a towel and I go back and open the door and there’s a naked woman standing there and I look and she says Hello. I’m like, hi. And I didn’t have time. I didn’t have time to strike up a conversation. So she was putting on a bikini bottom and, otherwise naked and totally naked except for putting on a bikini bottom. So I grabbed my towel and I go back out. I’m like, well, you know, I don’t have time to sit and chit chat. Like, what are you doing naked in the dressing room? But as it turns out, our manager had arranged for her to come out, so she wound up coming out on stage. The crowd went Crazy and David’s rubbing his guitar on her butt and, making these weird noises. And during one, I think it was violation. And, the crowd just loved it. But it was, it was like, what the hell?

Steve Cuden: But you hadn’t had any warning that she was coming to be there?

Carl Canedy: I had no, no clue. And there was nobody in the dressing room, just her. When I walked in, there was nobody in it. When I left, we, the three of us, we left, went out on stage from the dressing room and, ah, then when I went back in, there was a surprise.

Steve Cuden: That’s hilarious.

Carl Canedy: It was pretty funny.

Steve Cuden: What do you say to a naked woman when you don’t have time?

Carl Canedy: Yeah. Hi. Hi. That was all I had time to say. Hi.

Steve Cuden: All right, so last question for you today, guys. and we’ll ask Carl, because I asked Doc the question about advice. You’ve given us huge amounts of advice throughout this whole show. Really, some really very interesting and compelling stuff. But I’m wondering if you have a single solid piece of advice that you like to give to those who are starting out or maybe they’re in a little bit and trying to get to that next level.

Carl Canedy: Well, I always advise young artists to seek counsel. Have a lawyer. Don’t sign anything without a music business attorney. Don’t think that your local attorney, who’s, I’m sure, very competent in doing a real estate deal or, you know, grandma’s inheritance, you need a music business attorney. I had one attorney tell, me that this percentage was fine, and I knew it wasn’t fine, and, I had to negotiate against myself, so I wasn’t ripping off the band because he didn’t know. So I always advise that. But the other is to educate yourself. Educate yourself, educate yourself. It’s the music business, and it’s been said a million times, it’s a business, and if you’re going to be in it, you need to know the business, and you need to be aware of everything. And I, from early on, we, were able to rerelease the entire rods, catalog, license it. And I only license, I don’t sell it. I license it. Retain all of your publishing to your songs, because that’s critical down the line, and make sure you have the shortest licensing deals and make sure it bounces back to you. And so you can relicense it over and over or release it on your own. Now, that’s critical. Don’t give up your publishing. And then the other piece of advice I have is, you have to be true. You must stay true to yourself. Don’t follow trends. If you follow trends later on in your career, maybe you won’t be hugely successful, but you will have regrets that you didn’t. And you’ll look back on your career and go, wow, we were trying to sound like this, or trying to sound like that. It’s a waste of time. Be who you are. Maybe it’s not accepted the way you would like it. Maybe it doesn’t reach the widest audience you were hoping for. But as your career goes on, you’re going to look at your career in totality. And when you look at what you were true to yourself about, you’ll find that people will respect it and will come to it. They’ll find the music. People always find the music. If it’s true and it’s good, well.

Steve Cuden: I think those are extremely valuable pieces of advice. It isn’t called show business for nothing. It’s certainly not called show art. It is about being in business and thinking like a business person, and also having that integrity that you’re talking about. To stick to your guns and to be who you are. You, know, that’s about as valuable piece of advice as anyone’s ever going to give anybody. Be who you are, because that’s what makes you unique. Carl Canedy and Doc Harrington, this has been a really terrific, fun hour on story and I can’t thank you enough for your time, your energy, your wisdom. And if anyone’s interested in reading about where heavy metal came from, because Carl was there at the beginning, basically get tales of a wild dog and read it, because it’s a lot of very interesting stories you’ll find within that book. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being on the show with me today.

Carl Canedy: Thank you so much for having us.

Philip “Doc” Harrington: Thank you, Steve.

Steve Cuden: And so we’ve come to the end of today’s StoryBeat. If you like this episode, won’t you please take a moment to give us a comment, rating, or review on whatever app or platform you’re listening to? Your support helps us bring more great StoryBeat episodes to you. Story Beat is available on all major podcast apps and platforms, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Tunein, and many others. Until next time, I’m Steve Cuden, and may all your stories be unforgettable.