Steve Cuden: On today’s Story Beat

PJ Gaynard: You cannot wait for somebody else to give you the keys. Make your best idea and make it right now the best way that you can right now. Do not wait. You are a machine that can just generate idea after idea after idea, and you need to make your thing right now the best you can. If you have a cell phone, go out and tell a story. If you want to tell it, do not wait for somebody to tell you it’s okay. Make the best thing that you can. And it is only in the repeat of that process that you’re going to get better opportunities.

Announcer: This is Story Beat with Steve Cuden. A podcast for the creative mind. Story Beat explores how masters of creativity develop and produce brilliant works that people everywhere love and admire. So join us as we discover how talented creators find success in the worlds of imagination and entertainment. Here now is your host, Steve Cuden.

Steve Cuden: Thanks for joining us on Story Beat. We’re coming to you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My guest today, PJ Gaynard, is a multi talented, award winning storyteller with over 30 years of experience as a producer, director, writer, director of photography and editor. PJ is the current producer for Pittsburgh’s 48 Hour Film Project. He also created and is the executive director of the nonprofit Pittsburgh Shot, and he co created the accredited Film technician Associate degree and certificate program at the Community College of Allegheny county recently. His work has strongly leaned toward community filmmaking. In 2025, PJ received seven Telly Awards for his commercial work. I’ve seen two short films that he’s made, Art Tableau and Secondhand Ghouls, and can tell you they’re both very well made and fun to watch. You can learn more about pj@, uh, goatmilkfudgeproductions.com and pittsburghshot.org so for all those reasons and many more, I’m truly delighted to have the gifted filmmaker PJ Gaynard join me today on Story Beat. Pj, welcome to the show.

PJ Gaynard: Hi, Steve. Thank you so much for having me.

Steve Cuden: It’s a great privilege for me to have you. So let’s go back in time just a little bit. How old were you when you first started paying attention to movies and TV and the way things looked and operated on a screen? Screen.

PJ Gaynard: You know, it’s really funny, uh, because I, I didn’t realize that I was doing all the things that filmmakers do until I was much older. But my dad would drop me off at the movies as a child. Maybe it was a bad idea, but he would, you know, I remember going to The Crest Theater in, uh, in Peters Township, uh, in Pennsylvania. And, um, he would drop me off and I would watch movies there as a kid.

Steve Cuden: Did he know what movies you were watching?

PJ Gaynard: Yeah, I remember, you know, some of my earliest memories of going to the movies. You know, I saw, um, the third Star wars film, right? Uh, Return of the Jedi. I remember seeing that in the theater. I remember seeing the Toy in downtown Pittsburgh in the theater. Um, that was a big deal. We went and saw the Toy.

Steve Cuden: Was that Richard Pryor?

PJ Gaynard: Yeah, um, it was a movie about Richard, uh, Pryor being given to a child as the toy, you know. Um, and, uh, so I did see movies as a kid, and I remember my dad and I have never seen the movie since he took me to see this very, very scary movie. Um. Oh, he, uh, took me to see this movie, and it was absolutely terrifying. And he laughed. He thought it was so funny because my head was in the cushion or up against him whole time. I couldn’t have been older than five or six. So, um, uh, that was a. What was the name of that film? I can’t remember right now, but it was really, really scary. So, um. Yeah, but as a child, going to the movies, um, and then, uh, you know, all through my childhood, of course, uh, watching cable and just watching a lot of music videos. You know, I, as a child I had access to MTV, and I’m. I was born in 76, so I was a kid growing up in the 80s. And I just, you know, every morning in the summer, I would watch mtv, uh, you know, from the time I woke up until it was time to go to the swimming pool. And then when I’d come home, I would watch it in. And, uh, in HBO films and just a lot of films watching as a kid. And a lot of repeat watching too.

Steve Cuden: Or did you have a very vivid imagination? Were you starting to tell stories in your head at that time? No, no, that’s, um.

PJ Gaynard: You know, I, uh. The thing, uh, for me is that I lived in two environments at once, uh, which sort of created this sort of fractured environment for me where my mother and father lived a block away from each other for most of my childhood. Um, and so I lived in these very different environments that I could, uh, you know, my mom and my dad just sort of operated very differently. And so I could walk a block and live a very different life style. I was welcome in both households whenever, really, whenever I wanted. But that created sort of this environment for me. And my dad was a plumber, so I would go into all These houses and see the way people lived. Um, and I really think about filmmaking is the study of the human condition, right? And storytelling is trying to make sense of this human condition. And I lived and experienced all these different environments all the time. And people don’t think about plumbing as the study of the human condition. But what I would do with my dad is I would walk into somebody’s house directly upstairs, through their bedroom and into their personal bathroom, into the most personal part of their home. And I would do that all the time. That was just a normal thing for me. So I, um, Yeah, I got to know people from, from the, from that perspective, that human condition. And so I did think about stories. Um, you know, I did a lot of CB radio as a kid. Uh, so I spent a lot of time talking to people. Sometimes that those were men on the road for long hours, you know, interesting environments. Uh, I came about it from every direction. Did a lot of poetry, uh, when I was a teenager, wrote a lot of poetry and thought about stories very deeply from that.

Steve Cuden: What then got you to think about making movies or telling stories in a visual medium like movies and tv? Where did that start?

PJ Gaynard: You know, it really started in college. Um, I had a friend, Penulta Burt, and she, uh, she was a filmmaker in Pittsburgh. She went to Pittsburgh Filmmakers. She went to Point park, uh, University. And then, uh, she transferred to Rochester Institute of Technology. And we, we grew up in Canonsburg together. She was a year or two older than me. And so when we went. When I went to RIT Rochester New Institute, uh, of Technology for engineering, uh, in 1994, uh, Penny went as well and she transferred there as like a junior for filmmaking. And, uh, she asked me to act in her, her films. And I started dating a girl in college very early when I first got there, and she asked me to act in her first film. So I was acting initially in these films, uh, just because I was available. You know, I had done. I had done the Rocky Horror Picture show in high school as a member of the shadow cast. Uh, uh, and I had. In high school I had, uh, done improv at University of Pittsburgh. They used to have. At the University of Pittsburgh in the basement on Friday night they had these improv classes. Um, and you could, anybody could do it. Uh, at 11:00pm you could show up and raise your hand and you were in the improvs even if you didn’t know what you were doing, you were in. And uh, so I was doing that and I was doing this shadow casting of Rocky Horror, uh, you know, at midnight on Saturday nights. And so I was getting an opportunity to act. So when I went to college, these folks needed actors and they asked me to act in their film. And right around that time, my ideas of being an engineer started to implode. It just wasn’t working.

Steve Cuden: But isn’t filmmaking a form of engineering?

PJ Gaynard: It is, it is absolutely invention. You know, it is invention, necessity. Right. Filmmaking isn’t inventing by necessity.

Steve Cuden: And it requires discipline and organization and understanding how part A fits into part B. Just like an engineer starts to think that way, especially directors.

PJ Gaynard: And it’s a process. It’s a process.

Steve Cuden: Mhm.

PJ Gaynard: And it’s a process that I love. And I, I use that process like a blanket to keep me warm at night. And so that’s how I found filmmaking. And then I ended up changing my major. You know, after I acted for, uh, a few of the films, uh, Penny invited me back to set and I said, do you need me? You know, the first movie she had me act in, she wanted me to wear a bustier and a Lady Godiva wig like Rocky Horror. So then she invites me back again to, to be on this next movie set that she was doing. And I said, do you need me to wear the Lady Godiva wig again? And she goes, no, I need you to hold the boom pole. Will you, will you just help? We need help. Um, and that really was the start of something.

Steve Cuden: Did you then learn all of the different disciplines just by doing it?

PJ Gaynard: Yes, I was helping on sets. And then it was, would you like to take a class where you get to operate the camera and you get to tell your own story? And when I got to college, I wanted to, uh, see what I could do with the written word because I had been doing poetry and I started writing for this magazine. And I realized at that time, uh, that I think about this all the time. Um, Mark Twain has this saying, uh, words are only painted fire. The look is the fire itself. Uh, and I had this really tiny book in the early 90s. You could get these really tiny books, um, you know, that were like 3 inches by 4 inches. That would be like the art of art, uh, of war was one of them. And then there was the Mark Twain book. Like that. And I had these really tiny books because I like to keep things in my pockets. So I had that book by Mark Twain. And I thinking about, uh, the word, you know, that, that painted fire thing. And so when I got a chance to make my own films, I thought about that. You know, like, poetry is really amazing and I love poetry, but what could I do with a look when you. When you don’t say anything but that look says so much, you know, how could you explore what people are thinking without them saying what they’re thinking? And. And I often think about those moments that there’s no word for it, you know, and if you have somebody in your life that you care about and they hold your hand, you know, there is no word for that, hand holding, but it means so much. And, uh, could I explore that?

Steve Cuden: Well, it’s. The, uh. The definition of pure cinema, uh, is, uh, basically no sound, no dialogue, just visuals. What people say, think of as pure cinema, and that’s that you’re trying to affect that emotion on screen and get to feel it. That’s the, uh, the tricky part, isn’t it?

PJ Gaynard: Yes, it is. But I think that it is, uh, an important. I think it’s a really important thing to explore and to continue doing. You know, some people say, you know, hey, a silent film had gone another 10 years, we would be so far ahead of the game. Because, you know, silent movies are pure, right?

Steve Cuden: They communicate strict off of visuals. There’s no. I mean, you could have cards. They put the cards up with dialogue, but that’s not really what carries it forward.

PJ Gaynard: I think about that all the time. And that’s sort of what got me into it.

Steve Cuden: So you wear many hats at this point. You’re a writer, producer, director. You’re a director of photography, you edit, and you wear many hats. Um, do you think of yourself as one thing or another? Or do you think of yourself as some other multifunctional thing? How do you consider yourself?

PJ Gaynard: You know, I am in love with the process of filmmaking. This is year 31 of me making movies.

Steve Cuden: Wow.

PJ Gaynard: And I’m sure, Steve, you’re up there too, in just a few. And I’m not done. I’m not even getting started, you know, But I am in love with it. And I really think that if filmmaking is a process, then we can pick different things to do in that process to service the story. And, you know, a, uh, part of this is also a financial thing. Like, I need to make money to keep doing this, right?

Steve Cuden: Yes.

PJ Gaynard: And so if they have a director already signed onto the project, I better find something to do so that I can still pay the rent. So we all have to take different jobs in this process. And I want to be a creative part of that process and a creative force in that process. I am willing to help creative leads in that process when it needs to take Place, Uh, because I am able. When I was younger, I would do anything or just say yes. Right? That was the idea when, when I was first starting out was just say yes, get to set and say yes and help somebody and learn something about how this works. And I’m still willing to say yes to an extent. I want to be creatively involved. I really do. I’m desperate. And what I’ve been able to do, as I’ve continued to do this process, those people that I look up to and put their brain on top of my brain and say, oh, what would they do? What would they do? What would they do? And that has helped me develop my own sense of what I believe is the right way forward, is because of all of the people that I’ve been able to look up to trying to put their brain on and then do what they would do. And when you are their assistant, you need to do what they would do to get the job done. But then eventually you get to do what you would do.

Steve Cuden: So ultimately, uh, you correct me if you think I’m wrong, but ultimately, whatever position you’re in on a project, you are still in service to a story. Everyone is in service to the story, not to yourself. Even though you may have the vision, and it may be your vision that everyone’s trying to make happen, you’re still servicing whatever the underlying story is. Does that make sense?

PJ Gaynard: It does make sense. Yeah. You’re servicing the best story you can tell. Uh, the way that I have put it in the past when I’ve had students that I’ve been helping, you have to take care of the people around you, you on the movie, right. If you’re the key grip, you take care of the director of photography, and the director of photography takes care of the director, and the director takes care of the story.

Steve Cuden: Correct.

PJ Gaynard: And we know that the screenwriter also takes care of the story. Right? And then they hand the screenwriter sort of like, if you think about it like football, right? You know, the screenwriter’s got the ball and they. They take the ball as far as they can, and then they hand the ball off to somebody else. Maybe it’s more like rugby, you know, and they hand the ball off to. To the next person, the director, the director takes it as far as they can, and then they may be handed off to the editor, and then they stay with it, right? They, you know, work with the editor, but, you know, the editor’s taking the ball as far as they can. And we know the producer’s doing the same thing.

Steve Cuden: Well, the Editor is the final writer. You know, that final edit is what the story actually ends up being locked in. And that may change dramatically from what was on the page. Uh, and everyone involved in the entire discipline of making filmmaking is pulling toward one goal, and that’s to have an outcome called a movie, or film, whatever you want to call it. Uh, and so everybody’s pulling toward theoretically in that one direction. And that’s what makes it unique in a collaborative sense, that it’s not just two people or three people or 100 people doing different things. They’re all trying to get to the same goal of some sort of.

PJ Gaynard: I agree. And that’s why, you know, like, I’m really reluctant to, to call, call yourself something. Well, I’ll call myself a filmmaker, you know, and that’s normally how I refer to myself. I mean, I’m a filmmaker. And they said, well, what do you do? I said, well, what do you need? Certainly if I had to choose one thing and I could only do one thing, I’d love to be directing all the time.

Steve Cuden: Sure, that makes sense. And you have earned it. You’ve been doing it a long time. 31 years is a long time to be doing what you’re doing. And, uh, you’re clearly an expert at this point on what it is you do. So, uh, that’s an important factor for people to consider if they’re thinking about employing you or bringing you in on a project or whatever it is. When you’re creating, when you’re coming up with a story or when you’re working on a story, are you considering the audience in your mind’s eye or not?

PJ Gaynard: Yeah, I think I am. You know, I’m trying to balance, you know, uh, I’m trying to balance a lot of different things, right. I am thinking of the audience. Um, but the audience is filtered through me. Through what? Through my aesthetic, what I like as

Steve Cuden: the director, you’re the first audience.

PJ Gaynard: But I am thinking about them too. I’m thinking about sometimes if it’s a horror movie, right, we’re thinking about misdirection, maybe like, oh, they’re gonna think this, I’m gonna get them, you know, and they want to be gotten. Right. Um, so that’s certainly part of it. I think I do have to consider the audience, you know, I mean, what if the audience is children? And you said, well, they don’t know this yet there. Uh, our audience is three to five year old kids. They don’t know about this. That’s our audience. We have to, we have to Remember that and, and treat them carefully and lovingly. But, you know, well, what kind of

Steve Cuden: stories are you most attracted to? If you, if I said to you, pj, you get to do this kind of movie for the rest of your life and you can make dozens of them, is there a genre that you, uh, you know, move toward?

PJ Gaynard: I like quirky films. I like small films. You know, in my life, aliens are very rarely present. You know, I get very little opportunity to, uh, take over countries or, you know, like, um, that’s not. The films that affect me. And the films that I am interested in telling are stories that are small about people who live in our world and how they overcome problems in their lives. So that, that is my interest and it doesn’t mean that that can’t be fantastical. You know, I think what’s Eating Gilbert Grape is a great movie. I love that movie. You know, I, I do see room for fan fantastical elements. The movie or the TV show with Laura Palmer?

Steve Cuden: Um, oh, Twin Peaks.

PJ Gaynard: Twin Peaks. You know, I love Twin Peaks and that has fantastical elements. But it’s about, you’re more interested in

Steve Cuden: drama or comedy that is personally touching to people. Not in the realm of fantasy or sci fi or uh, big budget action stuff. You like the personal stuff?

PJ Gaynard: I like the personal stuff. Although I will say there’s a fantastical element to that. I often think about the difference between New York and Pittsburgh. Right. Uh, in New York people are tough, right? How they love you, they love you tough. Uh, in Pittsburgh they love you. And they’re a little tough, but they’re dancing while they do it.

Steve Cuden: Sure. Well, speaking of Pittsburgh, let’s talk about the 48 Hour Film Project that you more or less run. Am I correct?

PJ Gaynard: I’m the current city producer for the 48 Hour Film Project here. Um, a little bit of info. The 48 Hour Film Project has been happening. This is its 26th year in existence. It was created in Washington D.C. by, uh, Mark Rupert. Um, it was his idea to get some people together and see if a couple teams of people could make a movie in 48 hours. And then they screen them immediately. Mark has created this organization. Uh, it happens in well over 120 cities around the world. There is a city producer in each city running it. Uh, and Mark is still involved. He runs headquarters. Uh, he ah, is a phone call away and I speak to him all the time. He is one of the people I look up to in my life. Um, and uh, this group of city producers around the world, they are all incredible people. Uh, who I look up to and every time I get to know another city producer, I’m so impressed. They, they’re just magic people around the world and I’m one of them and I feel very blessed to be one of them.

Steve Cuden: Well, it’s a big, it’s a big job. Right?

PJ Gaynard: So basically uh, what the 48 is is uh, teams of filmmakers, ah, groups of filmmakers form teams and then teams at a kickoff event are given, um, a character, a line of dialogue and a prop. And then they, they draw two genres of film, making of films out of a hat. And then they are given 48 hours to make a four to seven minute short film which they must write, shoot and edit and turn in. Uh, and then teams do this and then a couple weeks later we screen those films in a proper movie theater. Um, the audience votes for their favorites. Um, and then we have a panel of judges, industry professionals judge the films. We have an award show and a best of screening and then we crown a city winner, uh, the best 48 hour film of our city. Um, and then the city winners go on to meet at a gathering point called Film a Palooza where all of the city winners are screened. They are judged by the audience and by a panel of judges there. And then yearly the best 48 hour film in the world is chosen and a collection of films from Filmapalooza go on to screen at Cannes, uh, in, at ah, the Cannes Short film corner. They, the 48 rents a proper screening room at Cannes at the Short Film Corner. They do have proper screening rooms there. And then they have a wonderful time at Cairns and they walk the red carpet and they go to parties and stuff like that. So it happens every year. It’s just wonderful. Uh, and it’s happening in Pittsburgh of course, uh, but also in Los Angeles and Mexico City, in Toronto, in New York, in Paris, Giant Paris. Uh, it happens in um, in London, um, in Shanghai and lots of places.

Steve Cuden: So. And how long have you been involved in it? When did you start with it?

PJ Gaynard: So I first, my first connection to the 48 Hour Film Project was in 2008. Uh, they were doing it in Los Angeles. I was living in LA at the time and uh, somebody I knew said we’re going to make this movie in 48 hours, we want you to shoot it. So just show up at this location, uh, be ready for interior exterior day and night. Uh, you know, we don’t know what we’re going to make, but I would regularly shoot short films where I was given the script the day before or whatever when I lived in la, so it didn’t seem that weird to me. I. I would answer Jobs on Craigslist all the time and just go and shoot. So. But it was a free project. You’re not allowed to be paid to work on the 48. And, uh, nobody is. That keeps the playing field even. So I showed up and we made this crazy short film, uh, and I went to the screening and I did not understand it at all.

Steve Cuden: You didn’t understand the movie that you’d worked on?

PJ Gaynard: No, I understood the movie that I worked on, but I didn’t understand the process. I just sort of.

Steve Cuden: Oh, I see.

PJ Gaynard: I showed up at the screening. It was lovely. I watched the movie and that was it. And the guys who were directing the film told me later, oh, we did well. I was like, oh, cool. You know. In 2015, I moved home to Pittsburgh. I had been living in LA for 11 years. It was lovely. Uh, I love my time in la, but my wife and I, we had a little boy and we needed extra bedrooms and LA got sort of expensive and we wanted to be closer to family, so we moved home to Pittsburgh. And when I got home to Pittsburgh, I really needed to meet people. I had. Even though I grew up in Pittsburgh, I. I didn’t live here as an adult. I didn’t know anybody who was making movies. And I really needed to meet a lot of people making movies fast. And the 48 is perfect for that. So when I got home to Pittsburgh, I went to a meetup, uh, for the 48. And I met a lot of people very quickly who were making movies. Uh, and I created my own team. Because I created my own team, I. I had to. I had to find a sound person and a composer and people to do lighting. And, you know, I just. I needed to find makeup artists and everybody. Um, and we did the first 48, uh, where I was directing. It was a short film called Lost Dog. It turned out great. It was about a little. It was about a girl who was like, 15 or 16, and she had left the gate open and her dog was lost. And her mother, in an effort for sort of some tough love, said, you got to put up flyers. You got to go find your dog. But what she didn’t realize was there was a bad woman in the neighborhood who was, um, who. She was evil, and she liked killing animals. Um, and part of the voiceover is the evil lady talking about how she had lost her dog as a kid and how, you know, like, killing these animals had made her feel better. You know, and it was so weird. And then eventually the young girl ends up meeting the woman and the young girl realizes what the woman is doing, so the woman kills her. And, you know, like, she realizes that killing these animals was sort of nice, but killing this girl made her feel a lot better. You know, it’s a horrible movie, right? But, you know, it was a horror movie. And that’s, that’s the genre we drew and that’s how we went about, uh, fulfilling the requirement in the 48 that you, you make that genre.

Steve Cuden: And that’s the, that’s the biggest part of the requirement, isn’t it, that you don’t know what you’re going to do before you start. You’re just giving it that day and off you go in the next 48 hours to make a, um, short.

PJ Gaynard: Right? Yeah. And the best films that get made in the 48, they have no clue what they’re going to do ahead of time. You know, you’re not allowed to Pre write the 48. So you can, you can gather a crew and a cast, you can gather some locations. You don’t know if they’re going to work. Um, you could even gather some props or some lighting or some equipment. Uh, but you don’t know what you’re going to make. And then Friday night you get these prompts, you know, the two genres, the character line and the prop. And then you have got to write something out of what you have. Uh, and that is really freeing because there’s not enough time to overthink it.

Steve Cuden: You just have to go. It’s go, go, go. It’s go, go, go.

PJ Gaynard: You finish writing at one o’ clock in the morning or midnight or whatever. And then at 8:00am, um, you’re on set and you’re making this movie. And, uh, you know, you, you know, everybody’s trying to gather stuff, you know, and you’re doing the best you can. You finish shooting, you know, it’s probably a long day while you’re shooting. And, and then hopefully, if you have an editor, they’re already cutting, they’re, they’re getting cards as you’re going. The composer is writing themes based on your script that you wrote the night before. And then Sunday you’re editing and then you’re turning your film in. And what’s great is Friday at 5pm There is no movie. And Sunday by 7:30pm There is a done movie that you made with your friends. Look, I hope some of your listeners are really, really experienced filmmakers and they’ve been doing this For a long time. And if they have, they know sometimes these projects take a really, really long time.

Steve Cuden: Oh, long time.

PJ Gaynard: Years, uh, it’s not uncommon years. Right. And so even for those people, if they do the 48, you know, somebody who’s an experienced filmmaker, they go, my God, it’s a shot of adrenaline. The movie is done, it’s done. There’s no, there’s no two year thing. It is done in a weekend. And we have a new thing that is showing in a movie theater. We’re going to the theater, we’re watching it big on the screen. And if you ask me, I think that’s another part of it. I really think movies. I, uh, have nothing wrong with vertical filmmaking. I have nothing wrong with watching things on screens, on a bus. That’s all fine. But there is something really, really important about the communal process of seeing movies in a theater. And we do that with the 48. It’s not a festival, it’s a project. And the project is the filmmakers. And it’s all sped up, but it’s an audience in a movie theater watching that movie two weeks later, really, you know, they’re seeing those films on the big screen and then they’re done, they’re out, they’re getting released however the filmmakers want after that, whether that’s a festival or whatever.

Steve Cuden: Well, the commute, the communal aspect. The communal aspect of it is so important because, um, it goes all the way back to Aristotle and his notion of you have a messenger, a message and a receiver, and you don’t have a complete circuit until you have all three. So you need someone to tell a story, you need them to tell the story, and you need someone to receive the story. Without those three parts, you don’t really have a complete work. And so you need that audience. And the fact that you’re showing it in a theater with an audience, I think that really elevates it to a different place than putting it out on YouTube or wherever.

PJ Gaynard: It doesn’t have to be just one way right later they can put it out on YouTube. They can still do that. But, you know, it’s interesting you mentioned that because, uh, we get people who are YouTubers that do the 48 and, uh, you know, and so some of them are actually pretty experienced filmmakers, you know, and their, uh, and their comedy is pretty far along. Some of them are comedians, some of them are drama people, but some of them are comedy people. And I’ve had some people who make YouTube videos all the time. They, they make online content that’s Their bread and butter. And then they come and do the 48 and they come up to me afterwards and they are just, they are so lit up because they say, I heard an entire audience just go wild for that joke. And I’ve never heard it. When you exist in an online world, you can have followers, people can say they like it, but you don’t hear that response like you do in a theater.

Steve Cuden: Well, uh, that’s the receiver. That’s the third part of it. Having. Yes. On YouTube and on TV and in other ways where you’re watching things one you and a screen and nobody else, you’re not hearing that other reaction. You’re not hearing people gasp or laugh or, you know, um, move around in their seats because they’re bored. You’re not hearing any of that. And so it’s hard to make the judgment as to whether it actually is good or not or works or not. Uh, and so that audience part of it, I think, is a huge a, ah, huge part of the, of what you’re talking about in your process. Uh, do you feel like, um, there are people who are very experienced at filmmaking who actually struggle at that shortened production process, or do you think that they shine?

PJ Gaynard: Yeah, it’s some of each. Yeah. You know, like, um, obviously very experienced people, uh, they show up with all of their experience. Right. And that’s incredible. I think that 48 hours is a very short period of time and there is little time for second guessing where, uh, sometimes the experienced filmmaker is like, well, let’s just slow down a second and let’s think about this. And you can do that a little bit, but you need to be really careful with your time. And so I have had some experienced filmmakers do the 48 for the first time and they make that error where they slowed too, too much, and then they don’t complete their movie in time or their eyes are too big and they don’t compromise, uh, fast enough to finish the film. Um, so it’s possible you, uh, hope that, uh, an experienced filmmaker realizes it very quickly and, and says, oh, okay, this is, this, this is how we’re doing this. Um, I find that experienced filmmakers practice their workflow before the weekend. Right? They, they say, okay, what is the goal here? How can we reach that goal? You know, uh, and I do think the 48 is good for beginners and advanced filmmakers, and it levels the playing field.

Steve Cuden: Okay, so what are, what are some of the tricks then that you’ve experienced over time in terms of putting it together? Is it thinking of stories that are in a single location or maybe one or only two locations. Is it a uh, reduced cast? Is it uh, uh, coming up with something that’s a very simple idea. What are the tricks to succeeding in making a short film in that process in that time period?

PJ Gaynard: Yeah, those, everything you said are very, very good tricks. I think the first thing is shortchanging the process and not second guessing the process. So occasionally we’ll get filmmakers who will think they can cheat the process by having ideas in advance pre writing, but we don’t know it. Right. And I don’t recommend that. I think the people who do well at the 48, they take the prompts they’re given and they write something with it Friday night. That is really the key is writing. I do think having a schedule is really important. And in sticking to your schedule that says, you know, the you, it starts at 7pm on Friday. That’s what time you get your prompts. Uh, at a kickoff event, it happens somebody, they, the teams are forced to send one person, at least one person to the kickoff event which happens between 6 and 7pm Right. So they initially teams will send the director. I screen or uh, I have YouTube live the kickoff. So more advanced teams realized send someone fun to the kickoff. I will be ready to write at my place with other writers. Maybe if some people do it differently. Some people will do a single person writing, that’s fine. Other people will run it like a writer’s room. They want to have more of a TV environment where they have a showrunner and they have two or three writers writing scenes. They may be using a product like Writer Duet to put it together. I’m a big fan of that product. Um, but they could use, you know, you could do it anyway. You could do it in Google Docs, really. Um, but they’re writing uh, together. So they might have their whole writing team at the uh, and then one person at the kickoff. But I do think getting writing is important. Breaking the story by a time, you know, uh, I remember one time I was, I was directing a 48 before I started running it and I said this is the idea we’re going to use. Let’s stop, stop pitching ideas. We’re good. This is the one. Now help me make this idea good. Right? Writing is rewriting. Let’s stop worrying. We pitched, we pitched. You pitched me five ideas. We’re going to do this one now. Let’s make it really, really good. And we’ll just in the revision. And that’s what we did.

Steve Cuden: It forces you into a Commitment to something, but versus FMFering around for weeks or months or whatever it is until you come to something that you sort of think is okay. Uh, it really forces you into it.

PJ Gaynard: Yeah, it does. It really forces you in. I think that. I think figuring out a workflow and building a team, uh, the 48 is all about team building. Uh, so I’ve had a lot of people who have done this for uh, uh, several years. I’ve had some people who have, uh, done did the 48 early in their filmmaking career and they don’t do it anymore. But they said to me later, they said, actually this is what jump started my film team. The team that now I work with all the time was the 48. Makes you build a team and you could do it by yourself. You can. We have had people do the 48 as a single person team and they’ve done fine. Uh, it’s possible.

Steve Cuden: Just one, one person does everything.

PJ Gaynard: One person. You can make that one person movie if that’s your dream. It’s not my dream, but it has been certain people’s dreams and they have. Some people have gone to film A Palooza. They’ve done that one person movie and it was really good and they won their city. I love that. But I like it personally when you build a team and then that team and you start working together. Uh, and the 48 is just part of your film process. Right. It’s not, it’s not the only movie you’re going to make, but it’s a good movie in that process because it forces you to make something quickly. And what I like is when teams come to the 48, maybe they are working on that multi year project, right? That project that takes two or three years or four years. Good, keep doing that. I love that. It’s going to be big and it’s going to be amazing. But on the way to a couple 48s so that you get a quick punch, you know, and you got a done short along that way. So that it’s not just waiting four years to hear what an audience thinks is funny. You go, why I had it this weekend. So in Pittsburgh we do the 48 twice a year in the spring. It’s in the spring. It’s every genre, right. It’s two 15 genre lists in the spring and you get one of each and then you can choose one or the other or you can mix them to have two, uh, you know, to be like maybe a hybrid. Yeah, you get comedy and romance and you make a romantic comedy or you

Steve Cuden: pick One or the other, or comedy, horror or whatever. It ends.

PJ Gaynard: Yes. Um, and then in the fall, we do a horror specific 48 where you get sub genres of horror. Um, so as we’re recording this right now, it is late August, and teams are signing up for the horror 48. And. And, you know, it’s splatter, horror, comedy, horror, musical.

Steve Cuden: I can’t imagine writing a musical and producing it in 48 hours.

PJ Gaynard: Oh, yeah. And teams do it. It’s incredible. You know that when. When you write a, uh, musical in 48 hours, the moment you pull musical, you call your composer and say, you need to get to the writer’s room right now. You know, we’re doing this with you. You are writing with us. You know, there’s no separate. And I often think with horror, if, you know you’re making a horror movie, you should call your makeup artist right now and say, why don’t you get to the writer’s room? Why don’t you be involved in this process? Because you think you know what you can do, but until you talk to that makeup artist, you don’t know.

Steve Cuden: How important is it for people to create stories that are, for lack of a better word, in sort of an, um, ordinary, usual and customary storytelling form, as opposed to creating stories that are abstract or. Or, um, unusually made, where you’re getting lots of weird images. But it’s. There’s not necessarily a story to it, is it? Is the storytelling part of it a very critical aspect of 48 Hour Film?

PJ Gaynard: Yeah, I do. I do think it is storytelling, uh, whether it’s abstract or not. And that’s okay. I love, I love abstract storytelling. Um, I do think storytelling is an important part of it, um, from a judging perspective, uh, for the 48, I’ll tell you, first, I have to qualify the film. So it has to be in the genre that you were given.

Steve Cuden: Sure.

PJ Gaynard: So, I mean, now, sometimes people don’t do a very good job. Right. Like, you’re supposed to make a comedy, but I don’t find it funny. That’s okay. If I can see an effort, that’s it. You did it. Um, versus, like, you know, you’re supposed to make a horror movie and you’re like, well, there’s no, no effort. This is not. It’s not scary at all. Um, so that aspect is required. And then it goes to the judges, and the judges will, uh, they have on the 48 website, you’ll see it’s. It’s a percentage of, uh, their, like, their vote tally. It’s like It’s a. Basically 100 points or percentage that adds up to 100. And part of that is for, um, did you do it in the genre that you were supposed to do it in? How good was it in that genre? And so the judges are judging, but also the audience is, you know, the audience vote is. Is happening as well. So if you. If you don’t succeed, they won’t vote for your movie.

Steve Cuden: Sure, of course. Yeah. Well, that’s the. The power of the crowd. Yeah. So what for you. This is a question I ask lots of guests, and I get varying and very interesting answers. What, for you, makes a good story good?

PJ Gaynard: The thing for me is I don’t always want to know where it’s going. I want to be surprised, you know, if I can. If I know the story from the very beginning. Well, that’s, um. I get bored after a while.

Steve Cuden: Well, every story, uh, my training is that every single story that’s memorable and popular and succeeds is a story of suspense. The master of suspense is, you know, famously Alfred Hitchcock. But that every story, comedy, drama, doesn’t matter, is a story of suspense. So that the audience does not know what’s going to happen next.

PJ Gaynard: Right. Surprise. Right. I always think about surprise. Um, I love this book called Audition by Michael Shirtliff. Uh, it’s an. It’s an acting book, but I actually use that book in the writing process, uh, fairly often. Um, because if I write a scene and the actor can’t act it, you know, I mean, they’ll find a way. But if they’re really going through mental hoops and you go, well, the audition book doesn’t work here. I start looking back at that scene and saying, like, and the story as well, you know, like, what does. They don’t have a motivation. Maybe you have a problem here in your story. Um, you know, so I often think about surprise. And I think that that is the thing is, like, I want to be taken on a journey. You know, Oftentimes when I think about stories, especially filmmaking, I think about where filmmaking started, which is, uh, you know, I’m going to take you somewhere you’ve never been and show you something you’ve never seen or experienced. Right? We think about those, like, those early stories, right? They were the early films they were talking about, like, a locomotive, a train. They thought the train was going to come through the screen. Right. Um, and the newsreels that said, like, now we’ll show you the world. You didn’t know it. Right. Um, I think about that all the time. And so I still want stories to show me things that I don’t know. Um, and it’s funny because, like I said, I want. I like small movies, but I still think in our homes, uh, there is incredible drama all the time. And you think you know, but you don’t know then.

Steve Cuden: And that’s life. That’s. I think that’s why stories mirror life. Because we honestly don’t know where we’re going to be tomorrow. Uh, we expect to be here. We expect to do X, Y or Z. We may have plans, but what is that old saw about, uh, life, um, is what happens while you’re busy making plans. And it’s always the next day is the next day, and it’s its own thing. And movies should be like that, where we don’t know what’s coming next. Is it is. You are, you know, you’re fond of short movies and smaller projects. Um, is it possible to make money from shorts? Is there a market for them?

PJ Gaynard: I want to believe that there is. You know, what I see is, uh, the market. When we talk about marketing, you know, we see that there is an ever shifting, uh, line, an ever shifting place where it’s financially viable. Uh, you know, for many, many years, people have said, there’s no money in short films. They are a calling card. And then you say, well, what about music videos in the 80s? Oh, well, there are. There’s money in music videos in the 1980s. Okay. Um, but not. Maybe not. There is money still today in music videos. It’s small money, though, but there is some money. Music videos, pretty, pretty small.

Steve Cuden: Most of your short content is. You find it online on YouTube. Uh, and. And some people can actually monetize that. Is that not true?

PJ Gaynard: Oh, it’s absolutely true. We’ve seen, uh, you know, there was the web series World, which is cooled, but there, uh, there is. There are definite people. You, uh, can ask Mr. Beast if there is any money in making videos, and Mr. Beast will tell you there’s some money. He’s making it.

Steve Cuden: I believe. I believe he is now a billionaire from starting as a maker ofShorts on YouTube.

PJ Gaynard: But we can look at some of this vertical video stuff that’s happening, uh, this last year, last couple of years. And I have friends who are, uh, acting their way through vertical videos. Ah, it’s a lot of the work that they’re getting. Um, and I see vertical production as a. As a wide open market right now

Steve Cuden: for the listeners that don’t know what you mean when you say vertical. You’re talking about it’s the shape of your phone standing upright.

PJ Gaynard: Yeah, it’s this phone, right? They got this phone and everybody’s got it in their hand and they are holding it vertical. Right. So because it’s.

Steve Cuden: Watch it vertically.

PJ Gaynard: I watch it vertically. And uh, if you look at Instagram reels, these short videos, they want to see one to two minute episodic stuff. Um, and you know, I’m seeing significant hits uh, for um, vertical, uh, video, uh, and short form reels, Instagram reels, where you can get a lot more views than you can through traditional video.

Steve Cuden: Well, yeah. Then the question is, can you figure out how to get people to give you money for it or whether you’re doing enough work that Instagram or YouTube or whatever it is is actually giving you money as a share of uh, their, their resource? Uh, but that’s difficult. It’s difficult to get there. And some, of course, like everything in the entertainment industry, there’s a degree of luck involved. But uh, you know, you have to have something that people want. That’s the trick. If you can find that niche and fill it, you can definitely, um, capitalize on it. But it’s not, it’s not easy.

PJ Gaynard: Well, the thing that I’ll say is with all filmmaking endeavors, you know, the first time you do it, you might not make a lot of money at it. You got to prove, you need to prove that you can do. You know, if you’re writing, if you’re a writer in this industry, you need to make spec scripts. If you want to be making features, they need to see spec features. If, if you want to be making television, they’re going to want to see episodic specs. Whether it’s original stuff or it’s stuff that is already out. You know, they want to see examples and they’re not going to let you do it for the first time until they can see it. And it’s the same with finished work. You know, uh, you know you got to have a finished feature before you understand what it’s like to sell a feature. And that first time, if you think it’s going to go great and you’re going to make a ton of money, uh, that might happen for you and I really hope that it does, but it might not.

Steve Cuden: It’s, it’s rare. It’s rare when your first product becomes a smash hit success. Like this movie that I’ve yet to see called Obsession that made, I don’t, uh, know a couple hundred million dollars, but made for next to nothing by a first time filmmaker you know, so that’s really rare. You know, Blair Witch Project, that’s really rare.

PJ Gaynard: I think it’s uh, there are very few overnight successes. You know, when you hear about an overnight success, just know that there was work, uh, put in. And if you want to do this, you’re going to put in work, uh, and you’re going to do it a bunch. And I, I have a lot of friends who are successful in the industry and I, uh, some far more successful than me. And I love that for them because they’re my friends and I care about my friends and I love seeing them succeed. Uh, but I will tell you, for most of them they grind it out and each time it’s a little bit better and it’s a little, you know, you make a little, a bit of success and then you gotta, you gotta go back to the well and, and get better and get a bigger project. And I mean it’s little bits, uh, and, and that’s how you win. That’s how you, and I think that’s how you can, you can um, be consistent. Like that one big success, I love that. But is it consistent? Because I need consistency. That’s how I really win.

Steve Cuden: There’s no substitute at all for doing the work. And you can’t go down to the corner movie store and buy yourself a career. You have to work it. And so it’s, it has all those challenges attached to it which actually weeds out huge numbers of people who can’t hack it. And that’s okay. That’s just part of the deal is people who can’t hack it, they go away whether they have talent or not. And the people who stick with it, uh, who are you to persevere? Those people have a tendency to continue to grow and eventually have something happen for them. That’s the typical thing. Tell us about Pittsburgh Shot. What is that?

PJ Gaynard: What I’ve been doing with the 48 has been wonderful and it’s sort of pushed me, uh, beyond the 48. You know, I was doing, putting on community events so that filmmakers could form teams. And then I started putting on other community events, doing other things that were beyond the 48. And so, uh, my wife calls me Mr. Free. She says, you’re doing another free thing. We’re not making any money. You have to, we have to pay the mortgage here.

Steve Cuden: Yes, that’s part of it. It is.

PJ Gaynard: Pittsburgh Shot is an idea where I take all the free stuff that I’m doing and I form a non profit so that maybe I could get some grants and Then keep doing the things that I’m doing, uh, for, for me, uh, I don’t know. I hope that a lot of your viewers are in all kinds of places. I hope they’re all over the world. And um, I loved Los Angeles when I was there. I, I work in Pittsburgh now. I consider Pittsburgh a mid sized market and I need to create film culture here. I need to be part of the success story of my community. Uh, and I know that I’m not going to do it alone. I really think it’s about having a team and my extended team and my extended network. And so I try to create film culture in my community. And that is what Pittsburgh Shot is all about, is trying to create events and opportunities for filmmakers here to network and create things together. And the 48 is one way that we do that. But we also have a, uh, uh, networking event called um, the Pittsburgh Crew Connect. It’s for crew and cast and producers and investors and videographers and people who shoot NFL football games and anybody who makes film and video in Pittsburgh to meet up and network. We have those events four times a year. We get about 300 to 400 people at each event. So ah, it’s a lot of people, it’s a lot of pitches, uh, of what projects they are doing and what help they need from each other. And I mean to tell you, when I have these events, the last event that we had randomly, uh, somebody came and they said, hey, I heard about this event. I thought I would come. I live here in Pittsburgh. In 2019, I won an Academy Award for my short film, which was an animated short film. Uh, I’m trying to get animation people in Pittsburgh. I think it’s going to be in the next hub. Um, would you please come and see me if you’re interested in being part of the animation industry in Pittsburgh, like an Academy Award winner at ah, our networking event. That’s what Pittsburgh Shot is about. And um, we’re trying to create more events like that, um, and partner with other organizations, not do it alone but, but really try to gather up other organizations in Pittsburgh. And I, I will tell you, if you’re in another city, steal my idea, steal all of them and do it there. Do the 48 do Pittsburgh shot. Uh, another one of our events is the um, the Filmmaker Flea Market. We have it yearly where, um, where we invite all filmmakers to come and sell their old stuff, you know, and if you’re starting out in the industry or you’re looking for a light or ah, you need an extra piece of equipment, come there and buy it in person, uh, you know, meet people, shake their hands, uh, actually network, but network around equipment. Right? Uh, so we had FX3s for sale. We just did this event last week. We had FX3s for sale. We had aperture lights, uh, we had a lot of equipment stands, tripods, audio gear, um, lenses were being sold at pennies on the dollar. But it was in person and there was a lot of networking taking place. You know, I think about, uh, Brian Hoffman was there. I don’t know if you know Brian Hoffman. Um, Brian is a little older now. He’s uh, retiring from the industry. So he had a bunch of equipment at the filmmaker flea market for sale. Uh, Brian worked on almost all of George Romero’s films. Um, so in Pittsburgh, you know, in every city there’s like a couple, there’s, there’s at least a few big name people who came through the city. And in Pittsburgh we have, ah, we have three really incredible people that have touched a lot of people locally. We’ve got Mr. Rogers, we’ve got George Romero, and we got August Wilson. And you’ll run across people who worked with these people who really knew them. Um, and Brian is one of those people who’s just sitting there selling his stuff. But he knew George Romero. He worked on those movies. I saw Tony, Tony Buba recently and he said, oh yeah, Brian cut our negative. Like he cut the negative for a movie, uh, for one of George Romero’s films. And so, um, you know, he, he came to the filmmaker flea market. That’s another one of our events for um, for Pittsburgh Shot. And we’re working on more things. Uh, you know, we want to have a larger, like a, like a grown up version of the 48 where you get a year to make a short film and you get like, uh, you know, you get 50, uh, thousand dollars as the prize.

Steve Cuden: That’s a nice prize.

PJ Gaynard: It’s a dream. Uh, I don’t have everything set up to make that happen yet, but that’s my dream is that we can have, we uh, can have this one year thing where you make a short and it’s hopefully building to. People get the money and then they can go make a feature with it or first money in for a feature.

Steve Cuden: And people can find out about this@Pittsburgh

PJ Gaynard: Shot.org yes, they can learn about Pittsburgh Shot there, the initiative, this idea, the $50,000 thing. We’re not very far along on that pathway yet. Uh, if you want to get big grants, you got to have a nonprofit for a while. And you got to establish a track record and the 48 and these other events are helping us establish that track record. But we’re hoping eventually to be able to offer that. Yeah.

Steve Cuden: So where does the name Goat Milk Fudge Productions come from?

PJ Gaynard: So, uh, my for profit business is called Goat Milk Fudge Productions. And I make movies and TV shows and commercials and all of those things out of Goat Milk Fudge Productions. There was a sign in my hometown in Canonsburg, Pennsylvania that said Goat Milk Fudge was on the side of the road on Route 19. And I, um, it was next to a, um, farmer’s market. And I stole that sign. Uh, when, when I was in college, I came home from college, I had decided that I was going to make movies. I told my parents, I’m changing my major, and I stole this sign. And then I took it home and my dad, I asked him to help me cut off the bolts. They were rusted on. And he said, you stole this sign? This is part of the town. This has been there as long as, uh, as long as he had been alive, that sign had been there. And uh, so he helped me cut off the bolts. And then I kept that sign for many, many years. And uh, a couple years after that, they leveled that hillside where the farmer’s market had been in. That sign had been, uh, the farmer’s market is already closed when I stole the sign. And um, so did I steal part of the town or did I save part of the town? Right. I think I saved it because they leveled that hillside, put in a BMW dealership, right, that sign. When I moved to Los Angeles, I, uh, you know, I named my company Goat Milk Fudge. We had, uh. When I made my first short films as a director, I created something called Fudge Festival, which was, uh, an evening where I premiered my shorts and I got all my friends to premiere their shorts, uh, for uh, you know, for uh, friends and family cast and crew screening so they would still have their premiere. Status as a short filmmaker is very important. Um, and then we, we would have a screening. But the only way you could get into the screening was that you knew me. It had to be. Everybody had to know one another. In la, it’s about forming a community with people, you know, because the community’s so big there.

Steve Cuden: Right.

PJ Gaynard: When you.

Steve Cuden: Sure.

PJ Gaynard: Now in Pittsburgh, uh, the, the job in Pittsburgh is slightly different, Right. The community is only so big in Pittsburgh and it’s about getting everybody together and, and creating community out of no community. Being disparate and totally separate. So Goat Milk Fudge is, is alive and well here. I have a 4,000 square foot studio space that I work out of, uh, in two studios. And um, I make things all the time. Uh, you know, we have feature films that I want to make, uh, that um, that I’m working on now. Uh, one is called Nice Try Kid the movie you can go to Nice try kid the movie.com and see some info on it. Another one is called Home Front. Um, I’m not making these alone. You know, Nice Try kid. It’s uh, Chris, uh, Reeves that I’m making that with. Um, that we’re. Right, we’ve wrote it together. It was Chris’s story and then we wrote that. We created this, uh, you know, many drafts of the script together after she had already written several drafts. And then, and I’m um, on to direct that and produce that with Chris. And then Home Front is with Zane Allen and Zayn had a script that then him and I have written several drafts together on. And uh, and we shot a proof of concept for that project which will be out soon.

Steve Cuden: Nice. Okay. So, you know, this is uh, an unusual thing that you’re doing because Pittsburgh notoriously has very fine, uh, technicians and people who work here. Especially when other movies come from Hollywood to shoot here. There’s a pretty healthy crew base located here in Pittsburgh. But it’s pretty rare for Pittsburgh to be known as the initiator of mov movies. And that’s, I think that’s part of what you’re doing.

PJ Gaynard: You know, that could be said about a lot of mid sized markets around the country.

Steve Cuden: Absolutely.

PJ Gaynard: You could say that about St. Louis and you could say that about Memphis and you could say that about, you know, so many great places with great filmmakers. And the thing that I will say is that I love these productions that come to town and use our crew and leave and they make their movie. And uh, that’s great because it gets the flavor of Pittsburgh into their film a little bit. But they are not Pittsburgh filmmakers and they are not intentionally illuminating the culture of the area.

Steve Cuden: They’re using it. They’re using our area and our folks because we have great backgrounds and great facilities here. They use it and then go back home, wherever home is.

PJ Gaynard: And when they make their money off their movie, and I hope they do, you know, when they’re, when they’re making the movie, they’re paying local crews and they’re. And those local crews are making money to pay their rent. I love that. But then when they make their money off their movie, that money is not. Not coming back here, that goes to wherever they’re from, so.

Steve Cuden: No, of course not.

PJ Gaynard: What I, what I dream of is I dream of people who are from here illuminating the culture of here. And I am not desperate for them to say Pittsburgh every other word. You know, it’s just baked in. And you know, when. When the movie’s set in la, it’s not always about la. And I love Miracle Mile. I’m a big fan of the movie Miracle Mile, if you know that movie and they really make that about L. A at that time. You know, there are lots of movies that don’t mention la. They’re just made in L. A. I want. I want movies made in Pittsburgh that are just. They’re just. It’s just baked in, and they’re by Pittsburgh filmmakers. And, you know, that you learn that story, and that story is just. It’s just part of the story of humanity. You know, I think about Clerks. Clerks is a New Jersey movie. Uh, you know, it’s not about New Jersey exactly. It’s about. Right. It’s about this convenience store, but it’s inherently about New Jersey, of course.

Steve Cuden: And that’s. And that’s true for many, many movies that are made in localities, uh, and frequently, uh, someone will be a success in Los Angeles and Hollywood, uh, but they’re from somewhere else, which many people in Hollywood are, and they will write something about their hometown, their, Their youth, or whatever it is that inspired them to become whatever they are. And so that flavor then comes back in, uh, because it’s. Because just because a movie’s made in LA does not mean it’s about L. A.

PJ Gaynard: No, but there are local LA movies. I should say that it’s.

Steve Cuden: And in fact, Pittsburgh could almost substitute for Gotham.

PJ Gaynard: And it has, right? It did.

Steve Cuden: It has. Yes, indeed, in the Dark Knight Rises. Well, I’ve been having just a fantastic, very fun conversation with PJ Gaynord. We’re gonna wind the show down a little bit, and I’m wondering, in all of your experiences, in your many years of doing this, um, can you share with us a story that’s either weird, quirky, offbeat, strange, or just plain funny?

PJ Gaynard: I’ve gotten to work and meet some incredible people, uh, over the course of my life. It will happen to all. All of us will get a chance. We’re going to get. We’re going to get grand opportunities only if we take advantage of them. So I met and worked with John Savage on a small feature called Last Call at Murray’s. It’s a very Small movie takes place in a fake bar, uh, you know, on a snowy evening. And I was the director of photography. And, uh, John Savage, if you’re not familiar with his work, he has appeared in over 200 feature films. Uh, he was in the Deer Hunter and. Which won an Academy Award. Um, of course, short films, reoccurring roles on television series is everything. On the last day of filming, John turned to me and he said, what do you got next? And I said, you know, John, I’m not actually sure. And he said, well, um, just so you know, uh, I’m available and my rates are reasonable in case you need somebody. And I think about that all the time. You know, we want to make this career. We want to make it seem incredible, and it is incredible without any help. Making movies and television shows and stories is a wonderful way to live, and it’s how I live. But to be available and have reasonable rates and continue to work, you know, think about it like John Savage. That’s good enough. And then I worked with James Cromwell on a short film that his ex wife, Julie Cobb, who is the daughter of a famous actor named Leo Jacob. Um, Leo, um, Julie directed the short film.

Steve Cuden: Lee Jacob.

PJ Gaynard: Yeah, Lee. Lee Jacob. Yeah, Lee Jacob. You’re right. Um, Julie is wonderful. She was the only female Red Shirt to ever be killed in the original series of Star Trek. She was in Charles in Charge. And we got Jamie on the project because of. Because Julie used to be married to him. Right. That’s what you call James Cromwell. When you’re his friend, you call him Jamie. And that’s what I learned. Um, and Jamie’s, uh, an incredible actor, and he brings it all the time. He never phones it in, ever. And that’s how you got to be. You got it. You got to bring it every single time. Never phone it in. So. But we were on the phone with. With Jamie trying to figure out how we’re going to shoot this scene for her short film. It’s called nightvet. It was made several years ago, and I was the DP on it. Um, and, uh, James was adamant that we had to have dynamic blocking, even though we were shooting in a tiny closet of a room. No, we have to have dynamic blocking. We have to have a way to really make this live and breathe and be real and be wonderful with an animal and another actor and three other people in this tiny room. And we did. And, um. And I tell you these two stories because you are going to be given opportunities to meet your idols, to meet incredible people that you look up to. If you do this long enough, it’s going to happen. You are going to, you have to create people to look up to, and then you need to look up to them and you’re going to give it. You’re going to be given an opportunity to work with them. And when you do, make sure you make the most of those opportunities.

Steve Cuden: That’s very good. That’s uh, very true about, uh, most things in life, at most, in most businesses, but particularly in show business, because it is all about who you know, not so much what you know. You better bring the talent with you and that’s expected. But then the difference maker is frequently who you know, not what you know. And so that’s very important.

PJ Gaynard: You’ll meet them along the way.

Steve Cuden: Well, no doubt. And beyond that, do you have a single, uh, solid piece of advice or a tip beyond that one you just gave us, that you like to give to those who are starting out and they maybe come up to you and say, how do I get into this? What do I do? Is there beyond all the things you’ve told us throughout this entire episode, uh, that is a sound piece of advice for someone starting out.

PJ Gaynard: You have to make it. You have to make it. You cannot wait for somebody else to give you the keys. You have to make it, and you have to make it now. Make your best idea and make it right now the best way that you can right now. Do not wait. Do not wait. You will not. First of all, you are an idea machine. You are a machine that can just generate idea after idea after idea. And I know that’s true for you, Steve, but I think it’s true for a lot of your viewers, a lot of your listeners. And you need to make your thing right now the best you can. If you have a cell phone, go out and tell a story. If you want to tell it, do not wait for somebody to tell you it’s okay. Make the best thing that you can and then make another thing and then make another thing. And it is only in the repeat of that process that you’re going to get better opportunities.

Steve Cuden: Absolutely, absolutely true and, uh, very wise. Uh, and it’s, uh, true of anything in the arts. I believe that the only way that you. We talked about this briefly earlier. The only way that you get stronger and better is to do it is like a muscle. The more you exercise your creative abilities and talents and your ability to be in society and learn things, uh, that’s the only way that you get stronger and better at this. So it is what you need to do. So that’s very, very wise advice. Uh, PJ Gaynor, this has been an absolutely terrific episode of Story, uh, Beat today, and I. I can’t thank you enough for your time, your energy, and all of this wonderful wisdom.

PJ Gaynard: Thank you so much, Steve. It is great to get to know you just even a tiny bit.

Steve Cuden: And so we’ve come to the end of today’s Story Beat. If you like this episode, won’t you please take a moment to give us a comment, rating, or review on whatever app or platform you’re listening to? Your support helps us bring more great Story Beat episodes to you. Story Beat is available on all major podcast apps and platforms, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, iHeartRadio, TuneIn, and many others. Until next time, I’m Steve Cuden, and may all your stories be unforgettable.