Steve Cuden: On today’s StoryBeat: 

Jonathan Bowen: If we had absolutely no one in the movie, they might not have even been interested in interviewing me. But you know, then when it’s like, Hey, you know, we’ve got this Eric Roberts cameo, we’ve got Carrot Top, Jesse’s the Star. So those little pieces we knew like this can really help us get the movie out there in a way that the first movie just didn’t have a chance to get seen, really.

Announcer: This is StoryBeat with Steve Cuden, a podcast for the creative mind. StoryBeat explores how Masters of creativity develop and produce brilliant works that people everywhere love and admire. So join us as we discover how talented creators find success in the worlds of imagination and entertainment.

Here now is your host, Steve Cuden.

Steve Cuden: Thanks for joining us on StoryBeat. We’re coming to you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My guest today, writer director Jonathan L. Bowen, started a film review site in high school, which he continued into college ultimately posting more than 600 movie reviews.

After moving to LA to pursue a film career, he started making independent music videos, then established a production company, JLB Media Productions that specializes in business to business, marketing and web videos. His music videos, short films and features have been screened at more than 50 film festivals nationwide.

His work includes the Devil’s Matchmaker, a Short That won Best Short Shorts, comedy Romance at the Eugene International Film Festival. Jonathan wrote and directed Amy Allison fans a feature-length romantic comedy. I’ve seen his most recent movie, the Comic Shop, which he co-wrote and directed. And I can tell you, as someone who’s written more than a few superhero cartoons, I found it to be funny and emotionally rich about folks struggling to survive in the dog eat dog world of comic books.

Jonathan’s also written two books, anticipation, the Real Life Story of Star Wars episode one, the Phantom Menace, which was written before Jonathan graduated high school, and its Sequel Revenge, the Real Life Story of Star Wars Episode Three, revenge of the sth. So for all those reasons and many more, I’m truly delighted to have the gifted writer director Jonathan L.Bowen joining me today. Jonathan, welcome to StoryBeat. 

Jonathan Bowen: Thank you for having me, and thanks for the great introduction. 

Steve Cuden: Well, it’s my great pleasure and I’m delighted that you’re here. So let’s go back in time just a little bit. Obviously you started really young. I mean, you were writing reviews of films in high school, but when, even before that, I assume, did you start paying attention to the way that movies look and work and storytelling?

When did you start paying attention to that? 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, I mean, I really think it was probably late middle school, um, sort of as I became a big Star Wars fan and I got really interested in the whole, uh, Joseph Campbell here with a thousand Faced. Sure. You know, all the mythology, the way that Lucas, um. You know, interwove so many inspirations.

And I think that actually kind of helped me go down other roads because I hadn’t heard of this stuff. Like, I didn’t know a Kira s when I was 12 or 13. Right. But, you know, now I’m reading about it. I’m like, okay, well if this was an inspiration for something I love so much, then you know, I, I wanna learn more about that.

I want to head down these roads. And so that, that kind of helped me. And then I. I got so into films that I just started watching really as many as I could. And of course you notice the same sort of beats after a while and 

Steve Cuden: Sure. 

Jonathan Bowen: Seeing the same things. And I think also part of when you get older, you something you thought was really original, you realize that there’s actually a earlier movie from like 15, 20 years before it that absolutely very similar.

Steve Cuden: You know, in, in academia they, they call that pattern recognition, right? So that you start to see patterns after a while and clearly you were at a young age figuring that out when I think most people your age you’ll agree, aren’t paying attention to that at all. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, I think that’s true. It’s, it’s much more about like whether something’s fun or entertaining or they chuckled or whatever.

But you know, I think that a big thing for me was that to say you want to be a filmmaker, but without understanding like the history of film, I. I really don’t understand that path because I, I think it should come from people who love movies, like almost can’t get enough of them. Agreed. And I suppose one of my inspirations there really was Tarantino, because that guy, I love watching his interviews.

He’ll just side all these off the wall movies that even I haven’t seen. And he, he just loves movies so much that I could, I could sit there and listen to him talk about movies for hours. 

Steve Cuden: So, so you were doing this when you were very young, even before the age of 10, I assume. 

Jonathan Bowen: You know, I, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do before.

I was probably like 13 or so, you know, 

Steve Cuden: and that’s when you started to write reviews and pay attention to movies? 

Jonathan Bowen: I, I started writing reviews, I think, I wanna say 16. I think I was 16 or 17. And, you know, I launched a, a website that we still use today, now it’s the corporate site, but way back, jlv media.com used to be just the high schoolers review.

Wow. Wow. Site, which is kind of funny to think about. But you know, I, and I, I do think that I didn’t have the, if I look back some of my earlier stuff, I didn’t have the language. To discuss things, um, quite as intelligently, like maybe also I didn’t have the basis for comparison, so maybe I would say like, the cinematography is really good, production design solid.

I’m like, well, these are like kind of basic words, like, like what’s good about it or what’s, you know. So as you see more you, you understand why it’s good and how you can describe right. To, to a reader, like what makes it good versus something else that maybe was less successful? 

Steve Cuden: Well, let me ask you a question that I ask many guests, and I’m always fascinated by the answer.

What do you think makes a good story? Good? 

Jonathan Bowen: You know, I, I really think for me that I have to care about the characters because I’ve seen so many movies where I love the concept. Like, I swear, most movies, no matter how good or bad, have some really good concept or jumping off point that that’s why I wanted to see it in the first place.

And then, mm-hmm. I, I’ve seen movies that are like, I acknowledge that the action is really good. All the stunt work is good, it’s super professionally done. But I find myself sitting there in the middle of the movie and I like, I’ll check my phone. It’s like, I don’t even care because I don’t like the characters, I don’t relate to them.

I don’t really care about their journey, whether they win or lose. And so I think that that’s what it has to be. It’s like you have to show me, you have to bring me into this. Why should I care about this guy’s story? Because a bunch of things blowing up and car chases and fistfights is it, it’s fine, but if I don’t really care about the person, then I’m not gonna be as engaged in it.

Steve Cuden: So it’s about the audience, um, somehow empathizing with the, the protagonist really. 

Jonathan Bowen: Right. And, and it doesn’t always mean they have to be like extremely likable, but they have to be interesting. Mm-hmm. At least like, you know, maybe in Pulp Fiction you can say, I don’t know that there’s any good guys in this movie, but I found them all to be quite interesting and, you know, and it was a view into something that.

It’s different than I see in everyday life. And so Tarantino was so good about, like, we’re talking about, you know, quarter pounders with cheese and you know, giving foot massages to Marcellus Wallace’s wife. 

Steve Cuden: That’s, that’s a royale with cheese. 

Jonathan Bowen: Royale with cheese. Exactly. And so it, it kind of, it brings you into like.

Maybe I don’t exactly like these people in the sense I, I wouldn’t go have a beer with them, but they’re interesting and I wanna see what happens. 

Steve Cuden: You are, uh, classically, the, the phrase that pays is just don’t be boring when you’re making something. Yeah. And you’re saying if you’re, if the filmmaker or the whoever it is is, is making it in a way that makes you bored.

Right. That’s a sin. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah. That’s pretty much what it is. It’s like, and I feel like once you’ve lost me, it’s hard to, it’s hard to get me back. 

Steve Cuden: It definitely is. Oh, sure. Because once you’ve lost an audience member, they then don’t trust that you’re gonna get them back. And even if you do, it’s like, okay, but I missed that whole middle part.

Right. Or I don’t care anymore. 

Jonathan Bowen: Right. 

Steve Cuden: And, and, and after your job is to make people care. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah. That’s, that’s really true. And you know, and I’ve had times where I felt bad, where I went back and saw a movie again because I. Somehow I didn’t trust the director to bring me, I guess, somewhere interesting or where I wanted to go.

Uh, example I can think of is a, it’s a littler movie, but it’s called Safe House with uh, uh, Patrick Stewart in it. I know there’s a couple movies called Safe House, but this is the one with, uh, star Trek Captain, you know, and it, it keeps going. And I, I kind of felt like it wasn’t going anywhere and it was just gonna be one of those, like, old Senile Man is senile, you know, I don’t know.

And so then it, it like actually gets somewhere interesting by the end and I ended up really liking it and feeling really bad that I didn’t trust the director enough to, to get me there. And so I, I disengage from it, but it is one of those things where. That is earned too, like directors we’ve heard of.

Right. I mean, when you see something like Christopher Nolan, then I’m gonna give him my trust and stay engaged until the end, because he’s earned that over many movies that, you know, maybe Interstellar. I actually didn’t love it until the end of the movie. And then I remember turning my wife and saying, ah, that movie is, that movie’s brilliant.

I love that movie. Like, I’m gonna see it again right now. I’ll see it again right now. Let’s put with it with 

Steve Cuden: hugely complicated plotting. 

Jonathan Bowen: Right, right. 

Steve Cuden: Which is always difficult and always dangerous. 

Jonathan Bowen: It is. Yeah. And, and sometimes that’s the thing is there’s a lot of my favorite movies were made by the end, like, uh, fight Club.

I would argue a large part of it, but definitely the game. Um, I, I thought the game was even, I. Somewhat mediocre to like above mediocre until the end. That kind of like made me reevaluate the entire movie. I saw it four times in theaters actually, because I You’re you’re talking 

Steve Cuden: about the, uh, Michael Douglas, uh, Sean Penn, David Fincher, the game.

Yes. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah. Yeah. And that, that’s kind of where I started to be like, okay, I really like David Fincher. I’m gonna keep seeing anything he’s, he’s doing. Um, you know, and then of course, uh, the usual suspects also. 

Steve Cuden: Well, so two master filmmakers, so Yeah. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, exactly. 

Steve Cuden: Brian Singer and David Fincher, both masters.

Jonathan Bowen: Right. But I remember thinking like I, we were 90% through the usual suspects and yeah, I was really late to the game on that movie for some reason. Mm-hmm. I think, ’cause my dad always talked about it and I was just being obstinate and didn’t wanna see it. And so then we were like 90% through and I, I look at my wife, I’m like, I don’t get it.

This movie is not that great. It’s all right. I mean, and so then, you know, we see the ending of it and I was like, okay, that is like absolutely the best ending in cinema history. No question about it. And then I love the whole movie and I just couldn’t get enough of it. I’ll still go back and watch the YouTube clip of the last five minutes sometimes just for fun.

I just love it. 

Steve Cuden: Alright, so let’s talk about your work. Are there special places that you turn to to find story ideas? 

Jonathan Bowen: You know, um, I have found, I know this may sound funny, but I have found that if I sit down and like try to come up with a story, it won’t happen or it won’t be something that I like or that’s organic.

I found that I come up with my best ideas by like just kind of living my life and sort of being intellectually curious, I guess might be the way to put it. Where like I’m reading news stories and something strikes me or something in the real world and then I, I kind of like get it a little germ of an idea, like around this exact time last year, it’s my wife’s birthday tomorrow, so she, yeah, so she wanted to go to a wellness retreat for her birthday last year.

You know, I wanna make her happy, but I don’t really care about this. And I had to like open day of the Yankees and Vegas Golden Knights games. And so I said, you do whatever you want. I’ll be in the hotel room just watching the games on my iPad. I don’t care. And so then, like, I noticed this kind of, to me like slightly creepy vibe at the place where like they have certain sayings that they have and they give you special type of water, like.

The whole thing was a little weird to me. And so no offense to them, but, and I started thinking, man, you know, I think you could set a really good horror film at a wellness retreat. That’s fun. You are like, what if there was a wellness retreat where it all started like fun and games being healthy and fit, and then it just kind of went a little off the deep end, 

Steve Cuden: right?

Jonathan Bowen: And maybe we sacrifice a guest every month, I don’t know, like, you know, something like that. And so, so there was an idea that came to me just completely at random, just observing the world around me and doing something different than I would usually do. 

Steve Cuden: Do you have a lot of those experiences where things just out of the blue come to you?

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, that’s, that’s like how my first movie came about. I was at some sort of a, some sort of a party that I don’t remember. It wasn’t for anything I was doing. It was some film party with my two actors from, uh, devil’s Matchmaker and then later Amy Allison fans. So. We, I, I just was kind of sitting there thinking about it and a bunch of people came up to Cooper, oh hey Cooper, how’s it going?

And I’m like, man, everybody knows who she is, but nobody came up and said hi to her boyfriend Brendan, you know, who’s the heck of an actor too? And so I just kind of started thinking, well, how funny would it be if she became like the next big deal? And then he’s kind of like a nobody, but he still has to pay his bills.

And, and then I started thinking, ’cause I used to run some celebrity fan sites back, uh, in high school and I guess early college. And I thought, what if he started a fan site about his own girlfriend, but didn’t tell her? So, so that was the basis of Amy Allison fans and, and it was totally at random that I came up with the idea.

I don’t know, like. I will say, I think you need to be receptive or I, I do. I don’t wanna speak for everyone, but when I was really mired in my corporate work and I had my head down and I knew I can’t afford to make a movie, no one’s gonna hire me to make one. It’s not even worth thinking about. Then I noticed the ideas just dried up.

I never came up with an idea for like years. And then when I was more receptive to it and got back into screenwriting, then I would no sooner finish a screenplay. Then I would have like two more ideas, which is kind of aggravating because I know how long it takes me to take an idea to a screenplay. So I’m like, no, I don’t.

I don’t even want more ideas. We have enough. Like I got 10 of them sitting on the file, 

Steve Cuden: so. So do you think, is there a way that you become more open? Is it just doing the work? 

Jonathan Bowen: I think it’s, I think it’s doing the work and I think it’s like. Taking opportunities to like, to brainstorm as well. But I, I, I do think there’s, it’s, that sounds woo woo, but there is some sort of openness that if you are like receptive to it and in thinking in terms of ideas, then they will come to you.

But like I have found that I cannot force them to come to me. I have to let them come on their own. 

Steve Cuden: Mm-hmm. 

Jonathan Bowen: Um, and it doesn’t mean like sit around and do nothing. It might mean go do things you don’t do usually like go, you know, walk around downtown or something, or like go on a hike and, and read, read some news sources, you know, because it’s not, you’re gonna steal from the news, but you might get some sort of inkling of an idea and be like, huh.

Like, well that’s not a whole idea. But that’s something I, I remember, like for instance, I came up with this idea. I, who is it? This lady that I was randomly talking to, or her husband was there in a movie theater and she. I don’t even know these people. And she started telling me about like their Hawaii trip and that that’s upcoming and she’s nervous about it ’cause of the in-laws, I don’t know, something like that.

And so I thought, how funny would it be to like give a character like this annoying character trait where they have to know the end of the story. Like even if they don’t know the person. So like, what if this character, what if I bugged her and said, I need your phone number or email. ’cause I have to know how the Hawaii trip ended up, even though it’s like, who cares?

I don’t know this lady. But I was like, that would be such an annoying character trait. And so funny. Same time. 

Steve Cuden: Do you know the story about what Alfred Hitchcock used to do at Universal? 

Jonathan Bowen: I, I don’t think so. So he used 

Steve Cuden: to go up in the black tower where all the executives were and you’d get back in the, you know, you get in the elevator and if there was some stranger that he didn’t know in the elevator.

But he was with someone he knew he’d start at the top of the, the elevator at the top of the, uh, building. He’d start telling them a, a murder mystery. And as soon as the doors opened on the ground floor, he would’ve just barely not told them the ending and walked out. So he would give them the whole story without the ending.

Jonathan Bowen: That’s, that’s the worst. Right. Yeah. No, I love that because it, it is, it does create that sort of like anticipation where you’re like wondering what happened. You know, what 

Steve Cuden: happens? Well, we’re all writing stories of suspense. We should all be writing stories and producing stories that are, the audience doesn’t know what’s coming next.

Right. And he was the master of suspense. But, but every great filmmaker has to be in some way. Let, let, let me ask you about your, the early video making career with marketing and web videos. How did you get into that? 

Jonathan Bowen: Um, actually that was kind of funny because. It was basically, I had moved down to LA uh, my mom had passed away like just before that, so it was already kind of weird, like huge new city all on my own.

Wasn’t exactly super capable of everything. So I certainly had to learn a lot quickly. Right. And then I was there, you know, learning film for a bit at, at LA Film School, which I basically dropped out of after eight weeks. They, they had different like segments and eight weeks was segment one and it was very intense.

It was usually nine to 12 hours a day. And you also did Saturdays. You had all this stuff to do, but I learned a lot and the teachers kept saying that, well, you kids will learn more when you’re out in the real world just doing it yourself. I heard this like five times a day and told ’em like, you don’t have to tell me that many times.

Like, I guess I’d rather just get outta here. And so my business partner at the time and I just quit. And, you know, we, we were trying to get into, ’cause he, he is a, um. A Syrian guy born in Iran, so he knew a lot of like Persian artists and whatnot. So we kind of thought about getting into, uh, Persian music videos, but it wasn’t as easy as we thought.

And so then my dad’s like, well, you know, son, like, you know, businesses need videos and you know, that’s the way to make money at least while you’re trying to do your other stuff. And I’m like, yeah, that’s true. I mean, I guess I do need money. So, you know, it wasn’t like an excited kind of thing. It was sort of like, yeah, I guess that’s a good point.

It might be a way to go. And, and I thought it would be a way to like practice and without like the stakes being overly high. And then it kind of turned into something where I wasn’t very involved for a couple years I was, but then our clients started asking about whether we could shoot a Montana or Wyoming or New York or Florida or whatever.

And it was, yeah, we could do that, but. We started hiring videographers all around the nation, so I was never even on the shoots. And then they come back to LA where we’d get them edited and my biggest job was writing the checks, doing the bookkeeping, selecting the videographer, um, choosing voiceover artists, things like that.

And it didn’t feel very creative at that point. Like in my mind I was gonna be on set directing corporate stuff. And then we realized they, they don’t have the budget for directors. Like they have the budget for a videographer, maybe an assistant, like paid very low rate. And I just was like, okay, I guess I’ll be at my office at home, just kind of managing the company.

And so that was kind of a weird, yeah, it was kind of a weird path through corporate work. And 

Steve Cuden: so you were more administrative than you were creating at point, at 

Jonathan Bowen: that point? Yeah. And that’s, that’s why I felt so like. I don’t know. Um, disheartened maybe because we, we would pitch for things with their higher budget.

They were more creative and we didn’t really typically land them. And then we realized that when we did land them, honestly the clients like it. They really did ruin that being any fun at all. Like, I remember this one time I wrote this, um. A whole script for them for not really a lot of money. I mean, I think I, I put in $500 pay for me and I rewrote it like 300 times.

I’m just kidding. But a lot of times, and they, you know, the, the corporations are so tame, like, oh, well we, we can’t have a guy with tattoos in the video. And so you can’t make a joke about him having a tattoo ’cause we don’t even, you know, and it was stuff like this. I’m like, it’s a tattoo. Relax. It’s not a big deal.

Lots of people have tattoos. And so it was kind of like that. And they, they neutered all of the jokes that I had that made this thing funny. And then here was the worst part, because that’s one thing I don’t, I don’t care. It’s their video is, we gave them three choices for actor, three choices for actress.

And I’d already directed a movie by this point. I was in the Director’s Guild and I told them, you can choose who you want, but I strongly recommend candidate A on this. And you know, candidate C on the other. These are by far the two best actors, actor, and actors. It’s not really close. The other two, I’m just providing as examples, like if you wanna go a different direction.

Well they chose the worst one for each person and overruled me and I’m like, well, it’s their money, it’s not mine. So, so then we shoot it and then they’re telling me after we get all edited, well the acting wasn’t quite as good as we had hoped. Oh, oh really? It’s almost like if you had actually listened to a professional then you would’ve got a much better video for the same price.

But, so there was little things like that where I’m like, I don’t even care to be creative on this stuff. ’cause they won’t listen anyways. 

Steve Cuden: It’s like bull Crush. So then you decided at some, at at some point you obviously decided to, um, do your own thing, I guess do your own creative stuff. Yeah. I mean, so what was that, what caused you to get there?

You know, 

Jonathan Bowen: I still, so, so we still run the corporate stuff and I do my weekly call. With my sales lady, and you know, there’s stuff like that we do. I’m proud of having done it, like working with bigger clients and stuff, as long as I don’t have to actually be too involved in it. So that was around 2018.

Steve Cuden: Mm-hmm. 

Jonathan Bowen: I told her at the start of the year, I said, look, I can’t do this anymore. Like, I just find I’m getting older and it’s soul crushing. I’m not getting any closer to where I want to be. So either you need to run the day to day or let’s just close the company. And luckily she’s kind of a control freak, which I like about her.

And so she’s like, no, no, no. Like we don’t, we don’t have to close the company. Like I’ll do the day-to-day stuff, you know, of course you’ll have to do the payment tasks and accounting, but like I will take over a bunch of the responsibilities and that freed me to write. So in 2018, I wrote five screenplays, all, all roughs.

They weren’t like polished. The way that I went back and, you know, did in the next two years actually, I, I swear it takes longer polish than to write. Mm-hmm. The rough. But, but I had so much fun that year, even though it was, it was hard work and you have to keep yourself accountable because no one cares.

Like, no one’s sitting there waiting for my, you know, masterful screenplay. So you, so you have to be very self-motivated and say, every day I’m gonna commit to writing for, you know, three hours or whatever. Um, and it was something that I realized as well that, uh, people, I know people work eight hours a day and I best friend who works 10 or 12 sometimes, so they think like, well, what’s the problem?

I mean, you, you should be able to write for 10 hours. No, you can’t. Like, there’s a great no book called, uh, daily Habits that my wife gave me. I, I think it like changed my life in some ways because it’s a bunch of the most famous writers that we all know, poets, novelists, screenwriters, you know, kind of a mix of everything.

And almost every single one of them said that they write between 30 minutes and the top was like four hours a day because there’s only so much creativity that is really gonna come out. And then you just are beating your head against the wall. So what I found is that if I did like two or three hours, but really focused, that means internet is off unless I need it for research.

No distractions, no like staring off into the sky unless you’re really thinking through the scene. You know, it was a lot you could do. You can do a lot of writing in two or three hours if you’re really, really focused. And then what was neat is that the brain actually works on it between today and tomorrow.

And that’s something that I, I don’t know if everyone realizes, but like, you have a problem and you end the day and you’re like, okay, I don’t know. I can’t, I can’t solve this story problem right now. Ugh. It’s really bothering me. And then you think about it like subconsciously the rest of the night, and then when you sleep and somehow, sometimes the next day, you’re like, I got it.

I know exactly how I’m gonna solve this problem. But if you had sat there for another three hours, I doubt you would’ve gotten it. 

Steve Cuden: Well, that’s your computer. You’ve turned the computer on and it’s doing a search for what it is. Right. It’s the similar thing to where you can’t remember something. 

Jonathan Bowen: Right. 

Steve Cuden: But if you just relax about it sometimes, sometimes that memory just pops back into your head.

Jonathan Bowen: That’s right. I think so. Yeah. It, it is. It’s, it’s really interesting. And I just felt so much guilt about it that I was, I was so glad to read that book because I don’t know, some part of me thought, well, I’m so privileged to be able to sit and write, and I say that this is my dream. So like, I should be able to write eight hours a day.

Right. Or 10 hours a day. 

Steve Cuden: No, no, no, 

Jonathan Bowen: no. And it just, and, and so I, I kind of felt all this guilt until I realized like, no, nobody does that. Like my fam, my favorite famous writers don’t do that. And there was, there was a lady, she’s crazy, I can’t remember her name, I’d have to look it up again, but she wrote something like 72 novels in her life and she said she wrote one hour a day and that was it.

And she still got to 72 novels. I’m like. Wow. It’s, that’s a work hard, not smart. A work smart, not hard thing, right? Like that’s insane. Well, well, 

Steve Cuden: if you put it into a numerical um, setting, so if you write two pages a day, 

Jonathan Bowen: right? 

Steve Cuden: And you do that for 150 days, which is only a part of a year, right? You’ve written a 300 page book now.

That’s right. The revision may take you long, but you’ve actually written a book at two pages a day. Pretty quickly actually. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, absolutely. And I know, and my, my thing is like, I’m very, I don’t know if how everyone does it, but I am very much about, like a super specific outline. So my screenplay outlines might be about 10 pages long.

Mm-hmm. And I will describe the scene, usually no dialogue. But if it comes to me and I’m like, oh, you know what would be just a great line for this, then I’ll like put a note. What about him saying something like this? And, and so I, I like the writing the most because I’m just looking at the outline going, okay, yeah, that’s right.

I know what I want to do for this. It’s the outline That’s tough because I’ve ended up redoing it. And, and it, what I’ve realized too is that if that outline isn’t really good, I’m gonna write a bunch of scenes that I’m gonna delete. And I’ve had it happen like one time I threw out all of act three ’cause I was like, it, it just doesn’t work.

I, I don’t know, I thought it did work in the outline and then I’m getting to writing it in. I hate Act three. And I don’t wanna keep any of it. Like, I think I kept the last scene and that was it. 

Steve Cuden: Well, I’m very glad to hear you say this because I’m a big outliner as well. I’m a big believer in outlining, and I think if you work it out really well in the outline, right, the writing of the script is fairly easy by comparison.

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, I think so too. Like, that’s the crazy part is I, I think I wrote most of the scripts and maybe about, oh, the quickest one might’ve been eight days, besides, I’ll tell you a crazy one I did, but it’s about eight days and maybe 22 days, whereas the outline mm-hmm. I, I’ve spent like a month in the outline and I, I actually had one, it’s the Phish that got away, you know?

But I was working on this story and I could never find a way to make it like internally consistent. So I kept outlining this, and then every time I did something, I was like, yeah, but if it was this, then why would he, why would he do that? Why would he act this way? Well, he wouldn’t, unless, and then I thought I had it solved and I plugged it.

I’m like, yeah, but then if this happened, then why would she? This doesn’t make any sense. And so I ended up abandoning it after about three or four weeks of outlining. ’cause I’m like, I don’t know. I can’t figure this out. I, every time I thought I solved something, I created two more problems. And it was, 

Steve Cuden: have you gone back to it ever?

Jonathan Bowen: I went back to it once. Um, and now there’s some movies that, what kind of makes me mad is like some other people did solve it. It’s not the same script, but like, there’s a movie called Margot. That’s because mine was like an ai, almost like an AI thing, like keeping you in the house. Like it’s so helpful and it’s so great until it won’t let you leave.

And then mm-hmm. Then they made, um, of course something like Megan, but also, uh, subservience, uh, there was, oh, afraid that was the one from last year. So now there’s AI movies all over the place that are pretty much like the script I wrote seven years ago, and they all figured out how to solve it pretty successfully.

So. I’m like, okay, 

Steve Cuden: well we’re, we’re all kind of beholden to the original AI movie called 2001 A Space Odyssey. 

Jonathan Bowen: Of course. I know. I love 2001. I, I, I’ll, I’ll be honest though, it took me, uh, some time, like when I saw it the first time, I think I was, yeah, I think I was 12 or 13 and my dad just insisted on a scene.

It’s the greatest movie. We have to see it. My dad was out like a light in like 15 minutes. I mean, he literally like, like, you know, snoring and my mom and sister and I were like looking over at him like, really? Like, you’re the one who wanted us to see this and you fall asleep. And I did think it was really slow as like a 12-year-old.

Then I saw it again. Well, it is 

Steve Cuden: really slow. It’s a really slow movie. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah. Well I saw, I saw it again in college and. I just thought it was a masterpiece. You know, I love, like, it’s one of my favorite movies ever. It’s, 

Steve Cuden: it’s genius. It’s it a genius movie. Yeah. And it’s totally so 

Jonathan Bowen: thoughtful, but I think that if you’re like expecting like 12-year-old Jonathan was expecting like Star Wars or something.

Sure. And, and then college, Jonathan, I majored in philosophy. So 2001 was absolutely right up my alley where there’s all these big philosophical questions in the film that aren’t necessarily answered, but they, but it gives you a chance to think about them. So, I mean, but I love Kubrick in general, so, 

Steve Cuden: so once you have an idea, you’ve got a concept in your head.

This is what I want to do. I, I guess the way you’ve said this to me, you have the concept before you develop the characters, or do you develop the characters first? 

Jonathan Bowen: You know, that’s a good question. Or 

Steve Cuden: does it come both ways? So 

Jonathan Bowen: it it, yeah. I’ve had it go both ways. Like the comic shop was very much about the character, like Mike was the whole mm-hmm.

Impetus of the start of the process. And then I kind of was like, great, I have a character, but you know, like, now what, what’s the story? I mean, what’s he doing? Like, and then I, I had to come up with a second character, Brandon, and it was those characters that kind of informed the story a bit. But I’ve had it happen the other way too, where I was like, boy, like, you know, I, I’ve got this one script that I finished.

I really like it, but it just. It wouldn’t be cheap to make at all. And it, it’s basically about a dream device like in the future where people aren’t content with just going to sleep and just, you know, mind does whatever you actually put on the dream device. And you can buy programs like you could be a Jedi night one night.

You could be James Bond the next, or go on vacation while you’re sleeping. And so gone are the days of nightmares and all that. Until of course, you know, as always happens in like every Michael Kreen book or movie, uh, you know, when you start messing with nature, sometimes things go wrong. And when hackers is control of.

These dream devices, it’s realized that a huge mistake was made and that they’re able to basically turn off sleep paralysis and control people while they’re asleep. So that’s kind of like the premise. And I was like, I, I, I love that idea. And then I came, I kind of kind came up with the characters after by saying, all right, well if that’s the thing, like who are the characters?

And it was like, maybe there’s, maybe it’s like a morally conflicted, like marketing director or something. Maybe he works for the company and he’s wondering if the engineers have actually asked the right questions. I mean, he’s gonna go out and promote this thing and he’s feeling weird about it. You know?

So, so those are the kind of things where sometimes I have to come up with a character after the concept and think, who, how is he gonna be relatable? Like, how, how can I tell the story by this character? Um, I. You know, I don’t know. It, it kind of does depend on the one though, because you could just come up with a character.

So interesting that he drives the, the action. 

Steve Cuden: Do you have any particular technique that you use to develop those characters to make them more real than just, you know, a, a concept? 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, I think so. Like, so I will usually try to do research into the, the field that I want them in as well. Like, okay, so what if they’re like, what is the head of marketing?

What does that look like? And then I started thinking like, let’s say with that story, oh, I know an inspiration. Like what about Apple’s keynote addresses? Like those are these big reveals, these are all exciting. What do they do? What does that look like? And then I actually kind of read some behind the scenes stuff of like, Steve Jobs or Tim Cook, like what, what’s going on in prep for these things?

What, what are they thinking? And um, and you know, then once I have a concept of like. The profession, assuming that that actually matters. Um, then I kind of think, well, like what does he like, I mean, what does he like to do? What are his hobbies? So I, I like to flesh out things you may not see in the movie or script at all.

Like, is he a baseball fan? I mean, does he like sports or did he used to play sports, or is he more of like a comic book guy or video games? And these are questions I wanna know. And like, what would be his dream vacation? Would it be hiking in, you know, a national park, or would it be going to like New York City and taking in Broadway plays?

I mean, 

Steve Cuden: do, do you write out bios? 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, I try to like, even of some of the smaller characters, maybe not as intense, but like I wanna know who they are so that I know how they might react. And I will say like, this sounds so funny, but I’ve seen other writers say it. Sometimes the characters like surprise you.

If you, if you actually flesh them out, then you start writing the scene and it goes a different direction than you even had outlined because you start realizing, well this is how they would actually act though. Like, I know the outline wants me to do this, but I can’t make a character do something just because the outline says that they have to do it.

It has to be consistent with the way the character would act. So then I found myself being like, you know what? I hate this, but I’m gonna pause the writing for a couple days and redo the outline because I don’t think that actually it’s the way this character would react. 

Steve Cuden: So, so the great Callie Cory, who wrote Thelma and Louise, um, once said, and I’m probably screwing the quote up, but it’s close enough that she likes to find the quiet enough to hear the characters speaking in her head.

Jonathan Bowen: Nice. 

Steve Cuden: That’s what you’re sort of talking about. The characters are talking to you through your, through the ether, I guess. Right? And you’re, you’re actually just along for the ride. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s like, because you’ve developed, like, if you’ve developed this backstory, then they’re not just plot devices, they’re, they’re actual characters, like who’re supposed to be fleshed out.

And so you, the outline might say he does this and that, and you’re like, well, wait a minute, but. I just don’t think he would do that because I mean, he’d be too scared to do that. I don’t know why I wrote that in the outline. Like he’d probably run and it’s like, okay, well what if he ran? What would that look like?

You know? And so I do think that, you know, sometimes though the outline is very much more, Hmm. Almost like logical and perfunctory and you try, you try to play it out in your mind. But yeah, that could work. But then it’s like once you start writing the dialogue and really getting into the character, then sometimes it does kind of contradict the outline or, or it force you to look at like, does that actually make sense for 

Steve Cuden: the character?

Jonathan Bowen: Mm-hmm. And if, and if it doesn’t, could I change the character? Maybe like May, maybe this isn’t, maybe the character needs to change, but I hate that in a way because I just think that like, there’s too many things where it’s like you ask, well, like why does this happen? Well, ’cause the plot needs to happen.

Like the, we were talking about the, um, famous, uh, Ben Affleck commentary on the Armageddon track, you know, it’s like the, the oil drillers and the astronauts. And he’s, he’s like, ask Michael Bay, like, well, why would you not just train the astronauts how to drill? Like why would you have to train the drillers how to be astronauts?

And he just basically told Ben Affleck to shut up. ’cause that’s the plan, you know? And it’s like that I don’t like, like, 

Steve Cuden: well, that’s what happens sometimes, is that the, the, uh, the. Filmmakers are serving the end game instead of what the story actually needs. 

Jonathan Bowen: Right, exactly. And we all see it. We all see it in some of these blockbusters where you’re like, I don’t even know why this happened.

I guess it just happened because a car chase would sell to international audiences. I. I don’t know. 

Steve Cuden: Well, I think that that does happen a lot. You know, naked people are in movies for no particular reason other than they’re naked, you know, that sort of thing. Oh, yeah. And that definitely sells movies 

Jonathan Bowen: all the time.

I know my dad’s, he, he’s just, he’s funny like that. Like sometimes he’ll tell him, he’s like, whoa, boy, you know, son, if you put a hot girl and she’s naked in it, you know, you get some ma and centrist and I just roll my eyes. I’m like, you know, I’m not opposed to nudity. But it needs to like actually make sense in the plot.

Steve Cuden: Of course it should have a logic to it. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah. Not just be completely pointless. And I, I am also though, like maybe one day I’ll get over this, but I don’t think you’ll see nudity in any of my movies for a long time. I’ve never ridden it into a script. Also because I realized as a director, I’m pretty awkward about that kind of thing.

Like I don’t really wanna direct that honestly. Like, I just don’t like it. 

Steve Cuden: Well, I feel weird. I I have, I have to be upfront and say I’ve been there and I’ve done that. I’ve actually had naked people on camera and, and it is very awkward. It’s an awkward situation. 

Jonathan Bowen: I did a, like a sex scene in Amy Allison fans, but you know, they have, they, they have their lingerie on, right.

And it was because they’re in, they were intending to create this paparazzi thing, and so they were gonna black out, so you wouldn’t even know whether they had something on. Even that though was so weird. And it was weird, even like under the best circumstance because they were real life boyfriend 

Steve Cuden: girlfriend.

Jonathan Bowen: Mm-hmm. So, oh. The 

Steve Cuden: actors were real life. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah. And so I was like, I mean, it really shouldn’t be like that awkward, but I just felt like I was seeing something I shouldn’t be seeing. Well, yeah. You know? And so then I remember like, I thought my DP like kind of overdid how much coverage we had. So like after five minutes was like, okay, yeah, I think, I think we got it.

I think that’s, I can make do of that. And he’s like, oh, well let’s just get a couple more angles. And I’m like, okay. But I think it was also, if I remember right, I could be misremembering. But I think that was the last scene that we shot on the last day. So he was right in the sense that like we had the time, we weren’t behind schedule, you know, it didn’t hurt to get more coverage, but I think I was just ready to be done with the scene.

Steve Cuden: Did did it, did it help the ultimate outcome? 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, probably. I mean, we had more options. Like I think we could have made due with a little bit less coverage, but I. You never know what you’re gonna use though. That’s the other thing. And we, and we did get a funny, there was a funny still that we pulled that ends up on the website later in the, in the film, um, that we might not have gotten had we not had that much coverage, but mm-hmm.

Like, I, I’m just, I, some of those things are like weird to me. ’cause when I did Devil’s Matchmaker, I made Cooper like Kiss this other dude. And I, I know her boyfriend because that was the, you know, he was the main guy in the movie. And so even with that, I was like, after two takes, I’m like, okay, I think we got it.

Like, I don’t wanna be the guy who makes her kiss like another guy seven times, you know? And you know, I was realizing, I was like, I was very green then though. And so I was like, okay, I’ll have to get over that eventually because. They’re the ones who chose to be an actor or actress. I mean, I can’t help that.

Was she 

Steve Cuden: objecting? 

Jonathan Bowen: No, not at all. I was just, I felt weird about it. Well, there you go. I was just like, 

Steve Cuden: well, there you go. 

Jonathan Bowen: I know her boyfriend is weird. 

Steve Cuden: Let’s talk about your recent movie, the Comic Shop. We’ve already brought it up and we’ve talked about it a tiny bit, but tell the listeners what it’s about.

Talk to them about, you know, why they should see this movie. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, so it’s about a guy named Mike who owns a comic shop in suburban Las Vegas, and his dream, he went to art school to be an illustrator, and it just didn’t really pan out. Like he did some freelance work and he dabbled, but he couldn’t make a living on it outta art school.

So then his dad, who was dying, basically trying to help him out, gave him the money to launch his own comic store as sort of his like. Plan B or practical approach to be a businessman. And so here he is, you know, a what, almost 20 years later and it’s just now we’ve had a pandemic and we’ve had all this like brick and mortars already kind of, you know, fading.

And so he’s just not loving life and it doesn’t seem like when he wakes up, he has much to look forward to. So he kind of hits the bar across the street at like two or 3:00 PM maybe earlier. And then his life kind of changes when a young customer is in high school. Brandon, uh, starts going to the store because he’s just moved to Vegas and Brandon wants to be an illustrator.

So he sees Mike’s work on the wall and it is really impressed and, you know, wants Mike to kind of teach him. But of course Mike’s grumpy and he doesn’t really care at first. So gradually through the movie, they kind of form this unlikely friendship where Mike sees in Brandon. A young version of himself who is full of optimism and hope and, and he starts realizing like, you know, maybe it isn’t too late for me.

I mean, he’s only like 40 years old. But there was a little part of that that I wanted to explore because I do think people think once they’re on the path, once they’re 40, it’s like, it’s over. You can’t, can’t switch, can’t change. Um, so that’s, that was the big impetus for the movie is to kind of say, look, it’s not too late to be what you might have been that famous quote, you know?

Steve Cuden: And, and how long did it take you to write it? 

Jonathan Bowen: Hmm. I think that the, I think the rough took me about two months and then I spent at least three or four revising because the, the revisions, it changed a lot between that early version, which I think, as I remember was a little bit short as well. Um, and. What I, the biggest change, I would say is that when it, the first versions of the script had two, what I would consider like fully realized characters.

And I really wanted to give, uh, Brandon’s dad, Kurt, a, a full character arc and make him sympathetic because he was coming across as too much like the, the bully dad. The, they’re very stereotypical, doesn’t get, his artistic son would prefer him to play football or something like that. And I wanted to make him less stereotypical and more of a guy who is actually was realized kind of protective.

Um, he had a dream too, and this, this guy who seems like, you know, real stiff who’s in the military and all that mm-hmm. You know, was actually in a band back in the day and he chose his path. He chose, uh, you know, a solid career, you know, serving the country and, and, uh, basically taking care of his family.

And he doesn’t regret it. He’s not like Mike, like, and that was important to me to show that. By no means is the movie advocating. Every single person who works a normal job should just quit and just go be an artist or something. You know? That’s not it. It’s that a guy like Mike with his personality, he’s just not gonna be happy unless he is chasing his art.

It, he’s gonna be miserable. But a guy like Kurt made a real choice. He wasn’t forced into it. He decided to be a family man. And he loves his life. He doesn’t, he doesn’t sit there with regret. So I wanna kind of show both sides of that in a way. 

Steve Cuden: But, but he is a father. He’s, uh, he comes around to his son’s way of life, right?

Where the, the son is definitely wants to be an artist, right? And he’s not into sports, which Kurt is. Yeah. And so, uh, eventually the father has to come around and feel some kind of sympathy or empathy for his child. 

Jonathan Bowen: I think he’s doing the usual, you know, that parent thing where it’s like anytime that you, if you told your parent, I want to be like a standup comic, right?

I bet you that wouldn’t go over well ever. You know, and your parents’ gonna be like, well, okay, you need to choose like a real career path. Like, how are you gonna make money? I. At least until you make it as a standup, that would be a nice parent. But 

Steve Cuden: well, there’s that infamous line. Why don’t you get a real job?

Jonathan Bowen: Exactly. 

Steve Cuden: And and yet people who do it well, which takes a while to do Right. Can eventually have not only real jobs, but real well paying jobs. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yes. I know. I always found that funny. It’s just that there’s so many things like that where the word real in front of something to me is not a ringing endorsement.

Like I noticed that a real job is always something insanely boring that I wouldn’t wanna be doing. 

Steve Cuden: Yes. It’s like, okay. I mean, because most people who are really good at what they do, even in business, whether they’re an auto mechanic, it doesn’t matter when they’re really good at their job, it’s not a burden.

It’s not, doesn’t feel like a job to them. It’s something that they want to do. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah. They enjoy it. Exactly. Like my friend, uh, one, one of my best friends is a radiologist and. I mean, I, I could never imagine doing what he does, but one reason he really likes it and went into that field over other medical fields is because the, it’s always different.

Like, it’s not like doing a knee surgery where it’s pretty much the same surgery again and again every day radiology, you actually don’t know what you’re gonna see. And so he sees it as like solving a puzzle. But maybe you and I would think like, man, I wouldn’t wanna stare at images all day long. I don’t, that’s not my thing.

But that’s why each of us has to find our thing that, that we actually enjoy because we’re good at it and, and it’s something that we are passionate about. 

Steve Cuden: Alright. So you put into this movie, you cast in this movie Jesse Metcalf, who’s a fairly well-known actor from mainly tv. Uh, yeah. Was it important for you to have a name in the movie?

A celebrity? Yeah. 

Jonathan Bowen: It was essential. Like I basically set that as a condition. We’re not doing it unless we get some sort of name, because I did it the first time and I got all of these responses that just, they’re just like kind of crushing as an artist. I mean, we won, I think we submitted 11 festivals, played at seven, which is an insane hit rate, and then got nominated at five and won at three of them.

Hmm. Including like a grand jury prize that’s behind me. And so I, I, I got all this good feedback and then we show it to Lionsgate and Showtime, all these places, and they said, yeah, it’s a good movie. It’s fun, we like it, but um, you know, there’s no one in it. So what, what can we do with that? And I’m like, oh, I don’t if it’s a good movie, like you can promote it like Right.

Can’t you do something with it? I mean, it’s also cheap, so, I mean, but no, it would just seem like it was hard to get a movie to go anywhere. Um, at least outside the horror genre. Like in horror, you really, it’s fine. Like right, you really don’t need names. Like it’s a bonus. If you have ’em, it’s great. But, but like, I’ve seen so many great horror films with really nobody in them.

Um, so when we were getting to this point, we talked to a distributor and said basically like, we know you’re not gonna give us money. We have the money, but could, can you give us a list of names who you believe could get our budget back? Like the, you feel pretty strongly about that. If we had one of these leads that our odds would, the odds would be in our favor, at least relatively speaking, it’s still a big risk.

And so Jesse was on that list. Um, it did, you know, we did make a lot of offers. Um, I didn’t like some of the names on the list. I didn’t think they fit. Role. Mm-hmm. So that’s kind of a tough one too. ’cause I’m like, I don’t know, like, just because it meets their criteria, I don’t know that I wanna make a movie where like, let’s say somebody on the list is 60 years old.

I mean, so he’s gonna what, get a second chance at 60. I mean, I didn’t find that super believable and it didn’t really fit the story like as I wrote it. Um, also, I, I think there’s a sometimes a difference between like, um, somebody who’s like just turned 40 and they, we still think we’re young. Like, I’m, I’m 42.

Like, I. I, I thought I was really young when I was like 38, and now I’m like, oh, well I guess I’m not that young anymore. You know? So I wanted Mike to be confronting that 

Steve Cuden: Well, well, you are compared to me. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, right. It’s all my, my dad said that too. It’s all relative. It’s all relative. He said, you go to the senior living homes and the 75 year olds talk about the 85 year olds, like, they’re so old, but the 85 year olds, they talk about the 95 year olds.

Those guys are the old ones. We’re not old like that. 

Steve Cuden: That’s exactly right. Well, so, so what you’re talking about by having a, a name, someone that people recognize in your movie, it helps the marketing people to sell the movie, which I find a little ironic since you’ve spent years and years making marketing videos.

Right. So I know, I mean, you, you need, you need something to draw people in. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah. You, yeah. That’s the big thing. It’s like, because we’ve had so many times where like. If we had absolutely no one in the movie, they might not have even been interested in interviewing me. But you know, then when it’s like, hey, you know, we’ve got the Eric Roberts cameo, we’ve got Carrot Top, Jessie’s the Star, A lot of people really like Tristan Mays, you know, from MacGyver and I, I really like her work as well.

And so, like Jesse just yesterday did Access Hollywood and e uh, back to back. They’re in the same building, which I never knew that. I don’t know if they’ve always been that way or what, but I thought that was funny. So those little pieces we knew like this can really help us, like get the movie out there in a way that the first movie just didn’t have a chance to get seen.

Really. Like, and I get it. I think that I made a critical mistake. Go making something in that genre, like you make a romantic comedy. What people wanna see in a romantic comedy is like, they’re stars. You know? They’re like, think about the nineties, you know, you wanna see Julia Roberts and you wanna see Hugh Grant, or you know, whatever.

Steve Cuden: Matthew McConaughey. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah. And you, and you tell ’em like, we’ve got this romantic comedy. It’s funny, but no one’s in it at all. And they’re sort of like, yeah, okay. I’ll get right on that. You know? But at least if you have something like the comic shop, you know where your audience is. Uh, what was the audience in the first film?

To my mind it was, uh, guys who don’t mind seeing a more, like guy directed romantic comedy. Mm-hmm. Like, it’s something that would, that you could actually watch with your girlfriend and not like, hate yourself over it. No, I’m just kidding. But, you know, that kind of thing. And so then with like comic shop, um, we knew like, who’s the audience?

Well, um. Honestly, I think lots of people will appreciate it. It’s certainly not just for comic book geeks, like, because I haven’t been an avid comic reader since I was like 13, so it can’t be too nerdy because I wouldn’t have been able to write that. But we knew that we have an audience of like geek culture nerds, comic book fans, and there’s like a big thing to tap into where people like that seem to be excited about it.

Like I’ve seen a lot of comments where people like, oh, I’m looking forward to seeing this and, and that’s what you want. And then you have Jesse’s fans who they’ll just see anything that Jesse’s in. I get it. I’m like that with Nicholas Cage, frankly. Sure, of course. You know, 

Steve Cuden: that’s why the marketing people want you to have those, those folks in the movie.

Jonathan Bowen: Exactly. What would you say 

Steve Cuden: was the single biggest challenge in making the movie? Was it raising money? Was it production? Was it post? What? What was the biggest challenge you had? 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, I mean, I think. Honestly, I think it was probably dealing with such a shortened schedule. And then like how many days? So we had 15 days.

Wow. I thought we’d have, I thought we’d have 17 or 18 when we first budgeted. And I, I couldn’t honestly tell you why it went down, but I’m, there were reasons. I know that, and I remember it being cut from 18 to 17 and I had an idea in my mind where we would film things and on what days, and I had come up with that.

17 would be great and 16 I could, I could make work, but like I was starting to get into, I don’t like that. And so when it was cut 18 to 17, I, okay, it’s fine. You know? And then when it get cuts to 15, you know, I’m starting to think like, well now you just made it so that the bowling scene and the convention has to be on the same day.

I. So great. So we have to find what, like, well, thank God we’re in Vegas, so it’s like we have to find a casino that has bowling and a convention space. Uh, there are a number of those, but there’s not that many of them. So then it was kind of like going down and that, that was a big challenge because it wasn’t scripted that way.

It was scripted much higher budget. ’cause I didn’t know if I was gonna make this thing. So it was scripted as being at a Golden Knights game, and that would’ve been really cool. And they’re having this big moment and Mike gets the call and it was kind of like very Hollywood in the sense, like, golden Knights just score a goal.

And then Mike, you know, picks up the phone and gets the call. Um, and then it was like, this isn’t gonna, we can’t, we don’t have the time or the money or the schedule to make this work. So what else could they be doing? And, you know, think about the ideas and. There’s not a lot that works. Like they can’t be out on a golf course.

One, because, like Brandon’s never golfed before. And then if they’re on a driving range, they’re gonna be maybe too spread apart possibly. So I thought, well, with bowling, you’re actually pretty close to your group. Sure. Um, maybe that would be a good idea. We could keep the characters close. And bowling is goofy enough that like, it doesn’t really matter if you’re good at it, I’m bad at it myself, but I I still like it.

I still have fun. Like, I don’t care. Like, I’m not ashamed to be bad at bowling, you know? 

Steve Cuden: Well, that’s why people go bowling. They don’t go to become professionals that go to have fun. 

Jonathan Bowen: Right. So that was a big challenge. And I, I think that the, the, just the time and like with Jesse, you know. That’s a hard part of it.

And I don’t mean that, I don’t, I’m not trying to say that Jesse’s hard to work with. What I mean is that he does have a expectation, like he has his own trailer that was non-negotiable and that costs money. And so then it’s like, okay, fine, you know, he’s our star, whatever. Um, but then you feel really bad putting him through the paces where on one day we had him film 15 scenes, and some of those scenes were just him, like, you know, the going to the microwave, putting in the, you know, whatever, no dialogue or at the computer.

But some of them weren’t, some of them were pretty tough scenes. And so he would come up to me and just be like, you know, gimme that look like this is a lot, man, this is a lot. And I’m like, yeah, I know. I’m sorry. It’s, we have the budget that we have, you know, like, I don’t know. I mean, I feel weird because it’s my first time like working with people who are, you know, known.

And so you, you have also have to get over that quickly. Like he is. Mm-hmm. Not Jesse Metcalf the star on my movie. He’s just my actor who I need to collaborate with to make this the best movie. 

Steve Cuden: W was that a difficult thing for you to do at first? 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, I think it was a little, it was a little weird and intimidating at first.

Um, I remember my wife was big into John Tucker Must Die, which I hadn’t seen before. We started dating like 13 years ago. And so she, she had me see this movie. And so when, when we cast Jessica’s, I didn’t watch Desperate Housewives. I was aware of it. I saw all the trailers, TV stuff, very aware, but like, I didn’t like watch the show, so just thinking like, oh my gosh, this is John Tucker.

And that, that happened a number of times. Like, oh, this is Car Top. Oh, this is Eric Roberts. And, and there’s weird things about that too, where like, I remember my dad and I like, it sounds so bad, but it was probably high school or so college and my dad and I. We’re watching and Carrot Top was on commercials, and my dad just didn’t like the way he looked.

You know, he’s old and, and he was old then too. And so he was basically like, oh, who is this guy, this carrot top dude, or whatever. And I was like, I don’t know. He is like some, you know, up and coming thing. And, and so then when I worked with him, and he’s just the nicest guy, like, he’s so humble and I just, I just love working with him so much.

And, but in that moment you’re like, oh, I can’t believe I would ever have said anything negative when I didn’t even know the guy or like, give him a chance or anything. You know? I. 

Steve Cuden: Wow, that’s, 

Jonathan Bowen: it happened. 

Steve Cuden: That’s part of learn, that’s part of learning who these folks are in the first place. ’cause sometimes what, who, why?

You know? And then you get to know them a little bit. 

Jonathan Bowen: It was so neat because, you know, he could have been, you know, he could have been really like a diva or something. Not at all. Like, I mean, I, he wasn’t there for the money, that’s for sure. We didn’t have much money to give him, and I actually had to awkwardly ask him to wait because we needed a sunset shot of the parking lot, which we should have gotten on one of the other days.

But it was now the last day at the location. I need that shot. And so I asked him, I was like, is there any way I’m, I’m so sorry to ask, but we’ll be quick. We just need to take the camera to the parking lot, get the sunset shot and then we’ll do your scene. And he was like, yeah, of course, no problem. He’s like, I’ve been on set before.

I know what it’s all about. And he’s like, just take your time, you know? Like, whew. I was all nervous about even having that conversation. So I think those are like some of the tough parts for me. 

Steve Cuden: I, I think most of the time the real pros get 

Jonathan Bowen: it. Yeah. Yeah. They do. 

Steve Cuden: You know, 

Jonathan Bowen: they, they do. And the, i i, the absolute roughest one, which actually I, I don’t think I’ve mentioned really, and I, I won’t try to, like, I’ll keep this as tam as possible, but basically, uh, Jesse had to go to Christmas con between like weeks two and three of filming, and I was already extremely nervous about this because we didn’t know about it until like three days before filming.

And I’m like, well, he then he, he’s gonna miss a day of filming, so I, we have to schedule that, right? And so it’s like, okay, well we only need him for 14 days outta 15. So he worked almost every day, but we do have one day we don’t need him. So I guess that’s the day. And so if he leaves on Friday, he just needs to get back by Sunday night.

It’ll be fine. And then he had some sort of problem that thankfully, I don’t have to lie because I actually don’t know the details, but basically there was an issue and he didn’t make his flight on Sunday night. 

Steve Cuden: Oof. Okay. I hear some 

Jonathan Bowen: sort of TSA thing. 

Steve Cuden: I dunno. 

Jonathan Bowen: And they can be dicks. So I know that. Um, and I got a call on like probably six 20 or so Sunday night from my producer telling me to sit down.

And then this is the call that no director wants to get. And I’m like, oh my God, what? Oh, he’s really building it up. What is it? You know? And he said that, uh, Jesse didn’t make his flight. There’s no way he looked. There’s no way for him to get back here until Monday night. It’s not gonna happen. And so we’re gonna have to push everything and we’re not filming tomorrow.

So everything’s on standby. And of course that was a really bad day because we had actually the cameos for Eric Roberts and Carrot Top, I believe, for that day. So I thought I would lose them both. I thought I was gonna lose my two cameos and we’d have to reschedule everything. And the worst part about it’s that I still, I’m just joking about this, but I still kind of blame myself because that day was my birthday.

It was my 40th birthday. And I, I remember saying like months before, I was like, when we started knowing when we were gonna film, I said, man, I really wish I didn’t have to film on my birthday, especially my 40th. Like that’s a pretty big deal. And the universe was like, all right Bob, we gotcha. You’re not gonna have storm on your birthday.

And I was like, ah. That’s not what I meant, and you knew it, but, but the universe, you have to be very specific. Otherwise it will just take you literally 

Steve Cuden: that that’s, uh, that it all worked out, didn’t 

Jonathan Bowen: it? It did, and thank God we were able to reschedule without really, we didn’t lose much. We lost, we lost a location.

That was kind of neat, but like scheduling wise, I don’t know that we would’ve been able to even like, do it. I think it worked out better the way it was, you know? 

Steve Cuden: Well that’s, that’s frequently what happens is something bad happens, right? And then something good happens because you have to redo things.

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, I think so. And you know, it, it all ended up okay, but it was so stressful for, you know, 24 hours as everyone is trying to frantically reschedule locations and people and, and so then we end up finishing like, you know, a day later. But, you know, it was, it was okay. I mean, it was. Alls well that ends well.

And you know, those kind of things, like that’s filmmaking. I mean, there’s always something that goes wrong. You just don’t know what it’s gonna be. And usually there’ll be like. I’d say there’ll be 20 small things and then like five medium things. Maybe one big one. 

Steve Cuden: You’re gonna have ’em one way or another when you get into production.

Jonathan Bowen: Oh yeah. I know. That’s why production to me is just, I like pre-production a lot and I like posts the most. Production is my least favorite, I’ll be honest. I know that sounds funny. It’s like, oh, well that’s when you’re making the movie. It’s 

Steve Cuden: really 

Jonathan Bowen: hard. Yeah. It’s like we get to work with the actors and I’m like, I know.

And. It’s fine, but I mean, I get four hours of sleep a night. I’m stressed all the time. Whereas like post I, I kind of like, because we have time to like, like see how this works. No, I don’t like it. Put it back, you know, it’s like time isn’t really a, a problem then, whereas it is during pre-production, it’s still a problem ’cause we’re like, well this needs to get done ’cause we only had six weeks till we shoot, you know.

Steve Cuden: Well I have been having just a marvelous conversation about all things production for a little more than an hour now with Jonathan L. Bowen, the writer and director. And we’re gonna wind the show down just a little bit right now. And I’m just wondering, in all of your experiences, and you’ve clearly had many at this point in your life and career, um, and you’ve worked with tons of people, are you able to share with us a, a story that’s either weird, quirky, offbeat strange, or just plain funny?

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah. Um, so I’ll give you two little ones. The first was my very first professional shoot. Um, I was a pa I think I was credited as a grip, but I was not a grip. I was, I didn’t even know what a CS stand was. I swear to God. So I, it was a Sybil Shepherd and it was like a public service announcement. And it was, the whole thing was funny because I did it for, I was told no pay, but I think they, they were wanna be nice.

So this guy with like the yaah on comes up to me. I mean, this is exactly what you heard about Hollywood, that it’s like all Jewish people. He comes up to me and he gives me a $50 bill and just thanks me, you know, for being there. I’m like, okay. And so Sybil Shepherd wanted to have an Apple box for her coffee, which, you know, if, if you’re not in film, it’s just basically just like a, a box that they use for setting things on.

So of course I go and bring it over and, you know, I did notice that. She didn’t even look at me like she’s got her own thing, right? She’s doing makeup, she’s remembering the lines. But I didn’t know that at the time. I thought, well, that’s kind of funny. Like I guess I am just a pa, right? And so then I’m told that her arm angle isn’t quite right and she’s gonna need a half an apple box to go on top of the apple box.

Okay, so I go get that. I put it on there and then I heard it. It’s still not quite right that we need a pancake, which is basically like an eighth of an Apple box so that her arm angle is like a perfect whatever, 90 degrees with the coffee. And by this point I’m just like, wow, okay. I mean, Hollywood really is kind of a funny place, you know?

So that was my first experience on a film set. And I think it’s a little funny, a little quirky, just a little weird all around the whole thing. Welcome to Hollywood. And yeah, and it was like, it was like a two day shoot that didn’t need to be two days, ’cause it was like two and a half hours at Panavision’s Woodland Hills Place.

And then the next day it was like four hours. I have no idea why that wouldn’t just be a day. ’cause it still wouldn’t be a long day. And they, the whole thing was her just sitting on a chair saying like, if you or anyone you know has been sexually assaulted, call this hotline, blah, blah, blah. And she did this over and over.

And I’m like, wow, okay. And it was all one take. So I’m like, it was a lot of time and money to spend on this one take. So the other one that I thought was really funny was on Amy Allison fans, and this is one of those, like, I don’t mind telling it now, but maybe we wouldn’t tell this like right afterwards.

So we were filming outside of, uh, a police station in la. I, I don’t even remember for sure what city it was, but in the LA area. And we got the master shots of, uh, it was supposed to be the, we’re permitted for the sidewalk, it’s public property. And so then we’re filming the, the, uh, two actors right outside the station where he just got let out and we got the master, but we need our coverage.

And you know, the singles on him, singles on her, and we’re losing the light. So what we had to do is we had to keep cheating it. And we moved them into the middle of the street by the last take, they were literally in the middle of the street in front of a police station. Thank God it was a side street and it wasn’t super busy, but like we had to hold one or two cars illegally.

We had no right to do that at all. And we’re just like, okay, let’s get this. Let’s get this. We’re losing the light. And I remember my first ad just yelling at me like, you guys are gonna get me fired. You’re gonna get me fired. I’m never gonna be in the union again. And he was just absolutely freaking out, which actually made me less stressed because I thought it was so funny 

Steve Cuden: just seeing him.

Jonathan Bowen: We got the take it all. It looks good. And you can’t tell they’re in the middle of the street because we’re close on them. All you can see is the beautiful sunlight hitting ’em. But I was like definitely stressing out because I mean, what if some officers walked out? Then it was a Sunday, I believe. So it was like it was a weird day and we just got lucky.

No one came out, no one said anything. But we were definitely thinking get this and get out. And you, and you weren’t even 

Steve Cuden: gorilla filmmaking. You were just No. Doing it in a way You shouldn’t have been doing it that moment. 

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah. It’s like we had permits and, and then we’re like, yeah, we had permits for the sidewalk, not the middle of the street.

Mm-hmm. Like we had no, no right. To be like shutting down a public street or anything like that. But I think in the whole time we only saw like three cars and they were usually, two of them were between takes. So we, you know, we got out and we just, we had it shoulder mounted, so we didn’t leave much of an IM imprint, but it was still like a pretty nerve wracking experience.

And I was like, ah, indie filmmaking, I guess. 

Steve Cuden: Well, and that is what it is, indie filmmaking. It’s it, you, you do what you can do to make it work. Um, right. So you, along the way in this, uh, wonderful interview, you’ve, um, given us a ton of great advice and your last question today, Jonathan, is, um, do you have a solid piece of advice or a tip that you’d like to give those who, to those who are coming up in the business or maybe they’re in a little bit trying to get to the next level?

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah. So, you know, one thing that I accidentally touched on a bit, but I would expound on is when I say like, don’t be afraid to waste time. And what I mean by that is to live, live your life. Like live an interesting life because I think that some people get so focused on working like they want it so bad that wanna make it, that they spend all their time like doing film stuff, but not actually like doing other things that inform what you might bring to the table as a storyteller.

And you know, as I was kind of hinting at, a lot of my best ideas came when I was not working. Like I was just kind of living my life, I guess you’d say. Wasting time. I wrote a whole script on a CNN article that like led me down a rabbit hole of research and it was just. It was an interesting article, but I was, I was actually wasting time.

Literally, I was reading CNN instead of doing work at that time. So, you know, and it’s one of those things like, don’t be afraid to, to do that, because sometimes if you’re just working, then what are you bringing to the table as a storyteller? That’s gonna be interesting. I mean, you, you’re not actually like living, you know?

And then the other thing I would say is like that, I always say it’s a little cliche, but I, I still think it’s good advice, is really never be afraid to make something that’s bad. Especially when you’re starting, like, there’s this, there’s this thought that I don’t wanna make a short unless it’s gonna be perfect.

No, no, no. Get that outta your mind. Like everyone has a certain number of bad shorts to make. It’s like paying your dues and each one of them you’re gonna learn. And I think that I’ve learned more on the really bad things I made in the past than I ever really learned on something that’s, that’s actually turns out well.

Because those times that are bad, like you, you have a whole list of notes. Oh, we messed this up. Oh, okay, this is how we should have done it. And it’s a learning experience. So like, it’s kind of like when you watch a, a, you know, a toddler trying to learn to walk, it’s not gonna be perfect. Right. But if they never tried, they, they would never walk either.

So with, same with like storytelling or anything. Just the more practice you get, the more scripts you write or the more shorts you make, the better you’ll get. Um, and that’s part of the process. There’s nothing to be ashamed of that your early stuff isn’t gonna turn out as Citizen Kane, you know? 

Steve Cuden: Well, you don’t have to show it to anybody.

Jonathan Bowen: Yeah, you don’t. And I didn’t like, I did like four or five shorts in high school. I think they’re on many DV tapes that got given to Goodwill. Oh God, I hope nobody finds those. But you know, nobody actually saw them besides like a couple friends. Maybe my mom saw one or two of them. I didn’t even show ’em to my dad.

He’d be embarrassed. 

Steve Cuden: Well, I think that that is really wonderful advice because you’ve got to go do it in order to get good at it. You can’t just, nobody’s born with a camera in their hands. Absolutely. You’ve gotta go figure it out. 

Jonathan Bowen: Absolute. Yeah. And that’s part of the fun part of the process. And you, you’ll remember all those times and then, you know, it becomes internalized like, don’t do that because I, I did that once.

It didn’t work, you know. 

Steve Cuden: Well, Jonathan Elbow, and this has been a terrific hour plus on Story Bee today, and I can’t thank you enough for your time, your energy, and your great wisdom. I really, truly appreciate it. 

Jonathan Bowen: Well, thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed it too. I, I love talking like the process and the fun of it all.

Steve Cuden: And so we’ve come to the end of today’s StoryBeat.

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Until next time, I’m Steve Cuden. And may all your stories be unforgettable.