“To be successful in anything, whether it’s being lore or architecture or driving a bus, have courage to stick to your guns. And if you know it’s right, follow that route. And if you know it’s wrong, turn around and walk backwards.”

~ Barry Greenfield

Barry Greenfield began his musical ride in 1965 when he was just 15 years old. Over the subsequent decades, Barry has become a greatly appreciated, old-school, singer songwriter, with three number one records, twenty-five plus covers, and life as a touring musician and storyteller.

He actually walked away from the music business in the mid-70s saying, “it’s not for me,” and yet he remained a dedicated songwriter and performer, releasing twelve LP’s while sharing his music with audiences everywhere. 

Barry’s autobiography, My Journey to Blue Sky, was recently published by New Haven Publishing. It covers the intimate details of his professional years, including, standing on the shoulders of various giants that he has known or worked with, like Cher, John Lennon, Larry Carlton, Supertramp, Kenny Rogers, Harry Nilsson, 10cc, and more.

Barry’s classic album, Blue Sky, released by RCA, has reached its 50^th anniversary. And now with his book, Barry reveals the life changing experiences he received while attending the ‘music school’ of the real world in those halcyon days of 1963 to 1975. Barry learned everything by listening, watching, and questioning.

Please be sure to stick around at the end of the show for a very special treat.  Barry has graciously lent us his powerful hit song, “New York is Closed Tonight.,” which we’ll play for everyone to enjoy.  After 9/11, CNN played “New York is Closed Tonight,” juxtaposed to what was happening to the twin towers.

WEBSITES:

• Website – barrygreenfieldmusic.com
• Barry’s autobiography – My Journey to Blue Sky

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Steve Cuden: On today's Story Beat.

Barry Greenfield: To be successful in anything, whether it's being lore or architecture or driving a bus, have courage to stick to your guns. And if you know it's right, follow that route. And if you know it's wrong, turn around and walk backwards.

Announcer: This is Story Beat with Steve Cuden A podcast for the creative mind, StoryBeat explores how masters of creativity develop and produce brilliant works that people everywhere love and admire. So join us as we discover how talented creators find success in the worlds of imagination and entertainment. Here now is your host, Steve Cuden

Steve Cuden: Thanks for joining us on Story Beat. We're coming to you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My guest today, Barry Greenfield, began his musical ride in 1965 when he was just 15 years old. Over the subsequent decades, Barry has become a greatly appreciated old school singer songwriter. With three number one records, 25 plus covers, and life as a touring musician and storyteller. He actually walked away from the music business in the mid-70s saying, it's not for me. And yet he remained a dedicated songwriter and performer, releasing 12 LPs while sharing his music with audiences everywhere. Barry's autobiography, My Journey to Blue sky was recently published by New Haven Publishing. It covers the intimate details of his professional years, including standing on the shoulders of various giants that he has known or worked with, like Cher, John Lennon, Larry Carlton, Supertramp, Kenny Rogers, Harry Nilsson, 10cc and more. Barry's classic album Blue sky, released by RCA, has reached its 50th anniversary. And now with his book, Barry reveals the life changing experiences he received while attending the music school of the real world. In those halcyon days of 1963 to 1975, Barry learned everything by listening, watching and questioning. Please be sure to stick around at the end of the show for a very special treat. Barry has graciously lent us his powerful hit song, New York is Closed Tonight, which we'll play for everyone to enjoy. So for all those reasons and many more, I'm truly honored to welcome to Story Beat the deeply talented singer, songwriter, and now author, Barry Greenfield. Barry, thanks so much for joining me.

Barry Greenfield: It's an honor and a pleasure to be here, Steve. I'm really looking forward to this talk.

Steve Cuden: Well, you and me both. so let's go back in time just a little bit. You've been writing and performing since you were very young. How did all this musical magic begin? What brought you to music in the first place?

Barry Greenfield: I was born in, very late 1950 in Manchester. And the first musical stuff that I recall was being 3, 4, and 5, and listening to people like Petula Clark, a very well known English, popster called Frankie Vaughan, sort of an Elvis type M, then Cliff Richards. And I just really connected with music. But it really all began, like so many of us, with Please, please me in 1963. And that's when everything became possible for me because I saw that songwriting was a way to talk from the heart to the world, in four minute segments. And it suits my, my ability. And I just began walking down that path. And just to add a bit more clarity to it, the reason I've become a songwriter and remain a songwriter is because I'm extremely unmusical. So when I heard a song like, love me do, or you can't do that or bus Stop, I could never work out how to play it. Just couldn't find it or get close to it. So I started writing my own songs based on famous titles. And that led me to writing original music with my own titles.

Steve Cuden: So I think you're the most musical, unmusical person ever.

Barry Greenfield: No, I am, know my strengths. I'm a, lyricist and I speak from the heart. I think if you try to write for the radio or you try to write for dollars, you're not going to write purity. But if you write, I think that's right, like John Lennon writes. If you write like George Harrison writes, if you write like, John Denver wrote, you've got 85% of it there.

Steve Cuden: So what first inspired you? Was it please please me? That's what first got you to think about writing music?

Barry Greenfield: Yeah, I was living in Africa in those days and I got the newspaper and they made a big deal that there's, a transition going on in this world with the Beatles. From there were singers at one area like, Frankie Avalon and then songwriters like Carole King and people like that. And then now they were homogenized and now their songs are written by the people singing them, in this case the Beatles, which of course led to everybody thinking they could write songs, which is definitely not true. It's very.

Steve Cuden: Well, it's definitely very hard to write a song. Very hard to write a song indeed.

Barry Greenfield: Yes.

Steve Cuden: All right. So for many, music is a calling. Is it? So for you, do you think it was a calling to you?

Barry Greenfield: Well, yes, of course, but I consider myself a Tune Smith, a songwriter, a Cole porter, Paul McCartney. I consider musicians like Larry Carlton and people that I work with that are way, way, way stronger on their instrument than me, but can't write a Song. So I see it as like, if you're looking at a British, ah, football game, this is center forward and they're a goalie. And they're both really important, but they do different things. So what I do is I write songs and then I struggle to sing them. And because I've done so much of it, I've developed timbre and a sound that is unique and works really well. But that was just from trial and error.

Steve Cuden: Well, there's no question your sound is unique. You sound like no one else. And so, that's both in the way that you write songs and the way you sing them. You have a very unique sounding voice. How long was it before, as you were writing, how long was it before you thought to yourself, you know what? I am pretty good at doing this. Did it take a while?

Barry Greenfield: I was two years in, I was 17. And the only people I played my song was for were my sister and my mother and my father. And of course they're biased, but they love them. So I was 17 years old and I walked to the freeway and I hitchhiked for three days and three nights to Los Angeles. And I checked into a hotel, which I think was called the Come On In. And I, got the Yellow Pages. And I walked around Los Angeles and Hollywood and Sunset Strip. You probably went to visit maybe. memory serves me right, between 10 and 15 publishers, and none of them signed me up or offered me anything, but they all said, you've got something, kid, and we really respect the fact that you hitchhiked here. So I then got the Greyhound bus back, got, better. And then that's when I flew to England. I went to Apple in 1968. I was 17.

Steve Cuden: We're gonna get to Apple in a bit, but I just want to cover some of the earlier stuff still, you have, over time, been inspired by one thing or another to get you to write a song. What were the first things early on in your life that were inspiring you to write?

Barry Greenfield: Political things always inspired me. Vietnam played a big part in my early songs. True love, love of, between family, love between romance. the same things that I enjoyed reading about, like home. Just truthful things and honesty. And New Yorker's Close Knight was about pollution. And that's the kind of thing that I wrote about. I wrote about things that other people didn't really visit. I was never interested in writing Save the Last Dance for Me or, Silhouettes on the Shade. I never wanted to write those kind of songs. I wanted to Write songs that made people think, and that's never changed. To this very day. I've been writing a song the last two days called I'm Going to Nashville. And it's about my 2008, 2009 trip to Nashville. So it deals with seeing lots of American flags, and it deals with the plantation that I visited. So I try to talk about things that nobody else talks about in songs.

Steve Cuden: Well, one of the things that I note in your songwriting, as well as your, singing and playing, is that it's full of passion. Your own personal passion, Hope. So how important is passion in songwriting and playing? How important is it to you?

Barry Greenfield: 100%. It's important in life. It's important. I'm 74 years old. I've been passionate about everything since the day I was born. I'm just. I. I just think about things. And to me, songwriting is like expression of inner thoughts. I don't really want to entertain. I want to make people think. So, subject matter such as, walls and restrictions and things that people don't visit in songs like I don't want to do dance tracks or anything that isn't meat, ah, and potato.

Steve Cuden: You're more of a songwriter in the tradition of troubadours and minstrels that, ah, went around the countryside and told stories.

Barry Greenfield: Of the day and, like, you know, what were they called? Not the jokers, the guys back in the 15, 1600s, the jesters. They were not funny people. They were satirists.

Steve Cuden: And truth. And truth tellers.

Barry Greenfield: And truth. Yeah. And when Bob Dylan wrote songs like Masses of War and Gates, of Eden, I mean, I don't compare myself to Dylan. Let's get that on the table here. But I do want to walk on the same road. You know, like, I watched the Charlemagne film, if that's the guy's name, Tim, whatever his name is. And I didn't like it. I thought it wasn't passionate enough. I thought it was sort of fluffy.

Steve Cuden: You mean Timothy Chalamet?

Barry Greenfield: Thank you so much. The one about Like a Rolling Stone, it just wasn't deep enough. And, yeah, I'm not interested in shallow. I'm not interested in puddles. I'm interested in oceans.

Steve Cuden: So I think, and you will agree or disagree with me, that I think a lot of today's audience is not into deep. And so they made a movie for that audience, not for the deeper thinker. and I think that. That it's more fluffy in terms of. It's about his life, not so much about the Depth of his songwriting. And that's what I think what you're talking about.

Barry Greenfield: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's been films made that I can't give you the titles of, but that more into this, the thinking of Dylan. But you're right, it doesn't fill the seats.

Steve Cuden: That's the problem is it doesn't fill the seats. And they're expensive propositions to make a movie of any kind, even a documentary, which that is not. But, they're expensive. And so people want to try and figure out how to make their money back. So that means appealing to the widest audience that they think they can. Let's talk about your book, My Journey to Blue Sky. I think, the book is outstanding and very interesting and compelling all the way through. Tell the listeners a little bit more about why you wrote My Journey to Blue sky and what it's all about.

Barry Greenfield: Well, we needed the introduction to me ten minutes ago.

Barry Greenfield: You said, RCA released Blue Sky. RCA did not release Blue Sky. They never released Blue Sky. I had the number one record in Canada. New York is closed tonight. It was the top song in Canada in 1972. The most played song in Canada in 1972, and the longest song at number one in Canada. And that was due to. I had a very heavy manager and his name was Fred Allet Jr. A h l e r t Jr. And Fred Allet Jr. Was living in New York and his main songwriters were Bacharach and David. Okay, Bo Diddley, Trust me on this. Bo Diddley heard New York's Clothes Tonight. My bass player played it for him. Bo Diddley took the song, the cassette took Fred. And for six months, Fred phoned me every six weeks or so from New York and said, this is number one record. you're gifted. Ah, you're the best lyricist I've come across since Hal David. And I want you to work with me. And I said, well, I don't want to go in the music business. I'm not interested. And he said, da da da da da. And then one day he phoned me up and he said, will you meet me in San Francisco tomorrow? And I was a student and I said, I don't have any money. And he said, well, just go to the airport. In those days you could leave a ticket at the Air Canticle. So I go to Los Angeles and I sign, a contract with Fred Allet and us close. Knight comes out in Canada, does extremely well because it did so well. He went to RCA and RCA Flew me down. And I was interviewed. I interviewed three producers and the guy that I picked was the least famous of the lot, David Kirschenbaum. And Kirschman went on to produce to win 73 major awards, Grammys, Oscars. But his first record was Blue Sky. So Blue sky was finished. We had, what was called double scale. So we had Larry Carlton, Jim Gordon, Joe Osborne, the best players in the world. And boy, is that record ever good.

Steve Cuden: It is. It's great.

Barry Greenfield: It's just never lost a step. So they released the first single, Sweet America. Sweet America, Ah. Entered the billboard charts at 54 with a bullet. And I'm flown down to RCA and they have a map up in a map on the wall that the staff had drawn of America with pins in it. And the pins are where the song has been added. Chicago, Detroit, probably Pittsburgh. I don't know if that's true, but certainly 30, 40 major markets. The second week, the song is zooming up the charts. John McCain and 132, I believe the number is from the Hanoi Hilton. Come back to America. America pulled the plug on Sweet America because it was anti Vietnam. So RCA flew me down to Los Angeles overnight, put me on the phone, and for two days I, was speaking to program directors. 30 a day. I remember as clear as I'm talking to you, Steve. And they said, barry, it's a fantastic song. It's probably a top 10 record. But we're not playing it. We're not playing anything of that ilk. John McCain's just come back. This is a great time. We're not playing your song, which is critical of the Vietnam War. And, Fred Allot, who, if I said what I really thought, my G's died 15 years ago. But if I say what I really thought, he went to RCA and demanded more from them. And Kirschenbaum phoned me up at home and said, we're not working with Fred Allard. We want you to separate from Fred Adler. Ah. And we'll do Blue sky and we'll do another album. And we believe in you, Barry. And, I didn't want to be a rock star. Never wanted to be, but I wanted to be a songwriter. And Fred Ellet was Burt Bacharach and Hal David. And that really talked to me in spades. So I said no to Kirschenbaum. Roll the clock ahead 50 years, turning 24. And it's now the 20th, 50th anniversary of Blue Sky. And record collector do a three page spread saying it's a Barry Greenfield's the best unknown, best songwriter you've never heard of in the planet. the Canadian hall of Fame inducts the record into the Canadian hall of Fame and says, one of the most outstanding Canadian records ever produced. And I get phone calls and interviews and stuff, and I'm thinking, well, this is weird. After 50 years, I've got no hair. And, I play to crowds of 120, 80. You know, I don't play to 5,000, 50,000. And there's something special about this record. And the reason there's something special about this record for you and your listeners, Steve, is the players are phenomenal. They're in their peak. They're the guys from Steely Dan, they're the guys from Simon and Garfunkel. They're the guys from Frank Sinatra, they're the guys from Bread. And they loved me and they loved these 12 songs. And so I went in the studio and I spent a lot of money and I remastered the record and put it out, and it's selling steadily, you know, And I just, you know, thought, well, I'll tell all these stories in a book. And I had four people I've never met, and I kept sending them these chapters, and they think, oh, this is really different. You're a really good writer, and this is really positive and pleasant. And a friend of mine gave me the title, a guy I've never met, one of my readers. I had four readers, as I said. And I just started writing it. And because I'm a songwriter, it's kind of easy to write a chapter. A chapter is like a song. You have the beginning and middle and end, and then you edit it. So that's what the book is. The book is the story of, 1963 to 1975, the blue sky years. That includes working with 10cc in England and working with John Lennon in Apple.

Steve Cuden: So one of the things that, makes a great writer great is that they are able to use their voice to. To express what's going on in their thinking. And that's who you are. So taking it from a song into prose is a, natural for you.

Barry Greenfield: It's like breakfast and dinner. They're the same thing.

Steve Cuden: It is the same thing at a different time of the day. and that's what it is. And so your ability to write is your ability to write. And the difference is you just didn't set the book to music.

Barry Greenfield: yeah, but I. I have been doing concerts since the late 90s for a year. I don't do anymore. And, I started early on telling the stories of Blue sky being kissed by Cher on the cheek, working with Supertramp. I mean, these are really, if you believe the stories, because obviously, when someone writes a memoir, they can make up stuff from anywhere. So if you trust Barry Greenfield, and I swear on my daughter's health that every word in this book is real, that my daughter is pretty important to me, they're kind of, like, unbelievable that I go to Mike Nesmith's house for dinner and I remember it all, and I remember the story, and I wrote it in the chapter. And they're all talking to John Lennon on the phone when he's in the Montreal, bed in with Yoko, and he gives me a little lecture about, what I can do to change the world. I mean, these are like, you know, my wife is very spiritual and very gifted and very talented, and she's taught me a lot in the last 10, 12 years about believing in angels and believing things happen for a reason. And I believe this book is helpful to people in, in their journey. Because whenever you watch a really good, speech at the Grammys or the Oscars, and it's a good one because not very many of them, they always say the same thing. I didn't think I'd ever be here. I didn't think this was going to happen. But I stood, I worked hard, and I arrived on time, and I wasn't drunk, and I showed up, and I learned my lines, and I. And I didn't yell, at people. I was kind to the person that was bringing me my coffee. And that's all that it's about. It's about, in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

Steve Cuden: So we've heard that, haven't we?

Barry Greenfield: Yeah, that's my mantra. And I think it's true.

Steve Cuden: Well, I think that it is true. I think that, John Lennon hit that nail on the head when he wrote that. I'm just curious. The Beatles, obviously, were your principal and first inspiration. You saw them. You write in the book that you saw them on the Tonight Show. Was it the Tonight show where you saw them, or was it the Ed Sullivan Show?

Barry Greenfield: I didn't see that Sullivan show because I wasn't living in North America then. I was living in Africa. But I heard about it. That was 1964, February 9th. I saw them in 1968. May 14th. Could be wrong. It was a Friday night. And they flew. John and Paul flew to New York to do this tonight. Show to pitch apple. So I knew about it all day. There's a whole chapter in the book about it, watching that show. And, they walked out through the curtain and it wasn't Johnny Carson, it was Joe Garrigiola of Old People Baseball Catcher. And the interview is really, really poorly done. John said it was one of the worst experiences of his career being interviewed. And it was really bad. But they said, hey man, we're opening up, ah, a record label for people who want to bring their music and not meet people, in suits and not have a problem and come to London. Bring your songs, bring your poems, bring your screenplays, Come to London and, you know, if we feel it's a fit, we'll help you. So I had $800 in the bank and it was for my first year tuition at university. And I was 17 years old and I got on a plane and I flew to London and went to Apple. And I walked up the stairs and I walked in and the Magritte picture of the Apple cut in half was still on the floor. And I walked to the desk, which is all told in the book. And I said, john Lennon and Paul McCartney invited us to come from all over the world to, bring our music while I'm here. And she had no idea what I was talking about, the receptionist.

Steve Cuden: And you said, how old were you again?

Barry Greenfield: 17.

Steve Cuden: 17. And you were 17. At 17. I would have never in a million years thought of getting on a plane and going to England to go find the Beatles. When what possessed you to do that? Were you just absolutely that focused?

Barry Greenfield: You know what he said? And it was John that did most of the talking that night. It was 22 minutes long, two 11 minute segments. And I taped on a cassette. So I played it over and over again for days, like 10 times a day. Crazy as it sounds. And I'm really not a crazy person. I'm about as normal and as ordinary as they come. I'm not special or anything. I just thought it made perfect sense. You know, I had the experience with Fred Allitt. actually I hadn't had the experience of Fred out yet, but I had experience with local and he's the top of the pile. And I always believe that if you work with the best, the Larry Carlton's, the Creme de la Creme, you will rise or you will make it. And I don't know, Steve, granted. M. My second book is called all youl Need Is Courage. And really, courage is all you need. I mean, if you see a person, you Want to date, you have to have the courage to ask them out. This was no different.

Steve Cuden: Well, so we know that today was different back then, obviously. But today, someone doing something like that might be thought of as a little too much or a stalker or whatever they might think of you because you've approached them in such. Well, you were able to walk in the door at Apple at that point. Right. It wasn't a lot of security. It was a simpler time for many reasons. and. But today, if somebody were to just try to get in to see Paul McCartney at his home or his business, wherever it would be, they would be, escorted back off the property without any question.

Barry Greenfield: And for good reason.

Steve Cuden: No matter how talented they were. And for good reason, of course. so what was it like when you met John Lennon? How you met him? Didn't you?

Barry Greenfield: Yeah, of course. I am, I guess I should. I mean, I'll tell. I got. Everybody should just tell the story for it to make sense. So the woman behind the desk, who I named Jillian in my second book, I tell this story in the second book as well, said, do you have an appointment? And I said, no. I said, he was on TV a few days ago, and he said to come. And she didn't know what to do, so she said, well, have a seat. So there was two church pews in the lobby. There was no chairs, church pews that the Apple people had gotten from a church. So I'm sitting there, and I've got my plastic bag and my guitar next to me, and lo and behold, who comes up the stairs? John Lennon and Yoko Ono. So I turn to John and I say, good morning, Mr. Lennon, which is what that horrible Mark David Chapman said to him. And John said, hello, and then smiled at Yoko, said, hello. She didn't respond to me. And they went into a room with the guy who was smoking a pipe and. Which I, later worked out probably out of client. After about 10 minutes, 15 minutes, a guy comes out. And this guy's name was Derek Taylor, and Derek Taylor was the Beatles publicist. And he worked with them in 1963 until he was fired by Epstein. And he came back in 68 when Epstein died, to help run Apple. So he comes out, this guy with a mustache, 27 years old, goes down on his knees, to get to my eye level, bends over, and he says, so, you've flown from Canada to meet John? Yeah. Well, why? And I said, because the Tonight show. He says, well, okay. Well, John's really busy. He's got Appointments all day. Do you have a cassette you could leave for him? And I said, no, I never made a cassette. Well, how are you going to show John your songs? And I said, oh, well, I bought my guitar. So I had like a $25 guitar in a plastic case. And he said, well, can you play them for me now? So happens one of my friends from writing this book, you might know. Do you know Tim Quinn?

Steve Cuden: I know Tim Quinn. He's been on this show twice.

Barry Greenfield: Tim Quinn was Derek Taylor's very, very best friend back in the day. So me and him have talked about Derek and he says, you're quite right. He was the kindest man on the planet. Died some years ago. So Derek said, will you play them for me? And I said, yeah. I didn't have any lyric sheets at all from memory. So we walk through Apple and it's a big building and every single office is empty. There is nothing. There's no tables, there's no chairs, there's just empty rooms. And you go right to the back and we sit in this empty room on this absolutely filthy, dirty shag carpet. The only part of the story I can't remember is what color it was, but I know it was shag. And I play him 10 songs. That's what, 40 minutes? And he said, these are phenomenal. You're so different. These are really great. Let me talk to John and come back tomorrow at 10 o'. Clock. So I go downstairs and I remember sending you a picture yesterday of me pointing to my Union Jack badge. Well, I went outside, took my picture and I phoned my mom, because you could phone, collect my payphone back in those days. And I said, I'm meeting John Lennon tomorrow. I went back tomorrow at 10 o'. Clock. And John said, derek really loves your songs. he's picked two. Love is for the Young and Old and with this new girl. And we're going to put demos of them and if we like them, you're going to be on Apple Records. And if the single does well, you're going to do an album. And I said, oh. And I said, I just sort of wanted someone else to sing the songs. He said, well, Derek thinks you've got a great voice. And so it's kind of hard to argue with John Lennon. I mean, he was so nice and it lasted a long time. It wasn't like it was 30 seconds. And he went on, how the hell I had the ability and the foresight and the gumption to come. Nobody else came, apparently, like, they signed James Taylor and they signed Bad Thing, if not through someone coming in the door from that Tonight show. No one came. So he was really. John's always been impressed with Courage. It's a, we go to the top of most, the popper, most boys, you know. He wasn't frightened of no one. When he heard the demos, which were very much like the record, he just loved them. And I said no, I, I don't want to do this. I just want to write songs, I don't want to sing. I'm too scared. I, I've never, I can't even chew my guitar yet. John, I'm not ready. I'm 17. And they were gobsmacked and I came home, went to university and then us closed night happened and then 10cc and then Fred Allen backpack. No one's ever said no except for that first adjourn to la.

Steve Cuden: Well, you turned down Apple Records, you know, which is most people would think is not foresightful. But you didn't feel like you were ready.

Barry Greenfield: No, not only didn't feel like I was, I wasn't ready. It's a very, very big yoke to put on your shoulders to sing in front of people. I've never sung in front of anyone but my sister and my mother and my father and my father. Hardly ever.

Steve Cuden: Do you think that young people who might have your situation today where they don't feel ready but somebody thinks that they have talent and wants to help them, would you advise them to do the same or would you advise them to maybe let somebody else guide you along the way? How would you advise them?

Barry Greenfield: Two steps back, one step left, one step right. Wait. Because the music business will eat you up.

Steve Cuden: Oh definitely.

Barry Greenfield: It's full of people that are there for money and not art. And unfortunately there's a lot of people in this world that don't really like to work. They just want to be ah, slave owners. And I think it was a very, very wise move. 17 year old kid. I mean there's some that can handle it. I mean did Michael Jackson handle it? Well, I don't think so. Did Miley Cyrus handle it? Well, I don't think so. It's very, very hard, you know, but someone that does it gradually, like you too, you know. The first album wasn't really that big and then the second album was a bit bigger. They had time to live supposedly when they wrote Follow, me Follow you, whatever that first single was, they only knew two chords, G and F Edge, only new two chords. So it's better when you get in the car and you drive in 30k until you get to a bigger road, then you go 50k. Then you can go on the freeway. But don't take your driving lessons on the freeway. Take your driving lessons in a parking lot. I wish I could give you an example of someone that I think it worked out for.

Steve Cuden: But, you know, I'll give you. I'll give you one off the top of my head. Taylor Swift.

Barry Greenfield: That the name was in my mouth. But I went to Nashville to sell my songs in 2008, 2007, and one of the names in everybody's tongues in music row was Taylor Swift. How mature she was. She was 12 or 13. I met Taylor Swift, and Taylor Swift's mother was never more than a yard and a half from her. Taylor Smith's mother never said a word. But she never ever left Taylor's side. Maybe there is the secret. I have no idea.

Steve Cuden: She was being guided by, her parents.

Barry Greenfield: With love.

Steve Cuden: With love. You write in the book, and I'm quoting quote, my life is marked by noticing an opportunity and acting upon it. Close quote. That seems to me to be one of the best rules for success ever. That's a great rule, to notice an opportunity and act on it. How did you figure that out at that age?

Barry Greenfield: Well, if I asked my wife Laurie, she would say, well, Barry's an old soul. Barry's been around this place a long time, a lot more than 74 years. And I don't know how to answer that except for, like, I really believe that humbleness is far more attractive than arrogance. So I just understood it from the word go. And like, when I met Lennon and when I met Carlton and when I met, others. And the list is a long list. Share, and even today, Randy Batman. I've written with Graham Gudens, very good friend of mine. they don't want, or they want you to be okay and normal and, you know, would you like some milk in your coffee? Not. Oh, I really, really like your. This or. You know, I never did any of that with John. I never ever told John that, please please me story. Never.

Steve Cuden: Well, because you treat them like they're.

Barry Greenfield: Just people because they are just like you.

Steve Cuden: Right, Exactly. But that's hard for a lot of people to, get. When I was a kid, just as an example, the other way. When I was a kid, I was a boob tube kid. All I did was watch tv, watch tv, go to movies, watch tv. That was my thing. And when I finally moved to Hollywood. As a young person in my early 20s, I was so starstruck, I didn't know what to say to people because I only knew them from being on a screen. And I think that happens to many, many people. They get starstruck and it's very difficult to overcome that unless you're around celebrities, famous people, successful people for a long time. For most people, I think, as you.

Barry Greenfield: Read in Blue sky, the book Journey to Blue Sky, I would visit people. So for instance, I spent four hours with Kenny Rogers.

Steve Cuden: Tell that story. That's a great story.

Barry Greenfield: I am, was a busboy at a supper club called the Cave in Vancouver, which was kind of like a Las Vegas room, right? Maybe 300 seats, maybe less. And they had really good acts, the Supremes, Kenny Rogers, Mitzi Gaynor, lots of acts of high end acts, I don't know why, but on the circuit, I guess. And I used to go to work at 7 at night and finish at 3 in the morning. And there was some of the acts that didn't appeal to me at all, but some of them did. Like, I met the fifth and fifth dimension through that place. I met Kenny Rogers. I met Sonny and Cher and others. But Kenny Rogers is the most of everything that's ever happened in my book or in my life. Kenny Rogers is at the very, very top for the way he treated me and the gifts he gave me and how he shared with me. So I go there at one in the afternoon, because I can get in, because I work there. And I walk up the spiral staircase to the dressing room, which is just a small, little dumpy dressing room. And I knock on the door and this Texas guy says, come in. And this is 19. It was Kenny Rogers in the first edition, 1968, 1967. And he says, who are you? And I said, my name is. I forgot, she's the same. My name is Barry Greenfield and I'm a songwriter and I'd like to discuss songwriting with you. And he said, okay, what do you got? So of course they listen to a song and I imagine after 30 seconds or 50 seconds or a minute and a half, if they're normal, they'll say, you know, sorry, I'm busy today. Good luck with your career. You're nice. hair, good luck. Four hours, man. He taught me about, told me how much he loved producing. He produced Don Henley's early demos for Shiloh, before the Eagles. He told me about working with, the guys. I can't remember the names, but the early country guys. I remember back in the day they're in the book. And he told me about being truthful. And if you think about the songs that Kenny Rogers recorded, like lady and the gambler and, I believe in you and she believes in me, I guess it was. They're all sort of like from his heart. And that's what he told me in four hours. Don't, don't record covers. Keep to what you know and be honest. And I thought he was absolutely, really helpful. And Sonny Buono told me the same things. And people, there is only sort of a common truth, which is be yourself, don't be arrogant. And if someone says no, accept it. Don't irritate them. And, the people you meet on the way up, the people you meet on the way down.

Steve Cuden: Well, you also write in the book, which is relevant to what you're talking about. And I'm quoting again, quote, whenever I am direct, use a calm voice, express myself clearly, I seem to arrive at affirmative. So that's what happened for you. You were direct with Kenny Rogers. You've been direct with people. That's how you approach people. And you're not all full of fluff. You're actually just going straight to the heart of the matter and they respond to it. Am I, am I reading that correctly?

Barry Greenfield: 1,000% correct. And the other thing that's important in the story is that when you walk into Kenny Rogers dressing room, you're meeting Kenny Rogers. Not the guy from the television series and not the guy that's going to sing with Dolly Parton, because he hadn't yet. Right. So Kenny Rogers and I told about this in the book, too, has a great history of collaborating. He's had a lot of hits with, Dottie west and with Lionel Richie and with Dolly Parton. I think Islands in the Stream is one of the best duets ever. And he was not the world's greatest singer, really. He just had a distinctive voice and was honest and. And smiled and arrived on time. I'm so sure. So, yeah, be honest. I think the word courage has to be in that thing as well. You have to have the courage to knock on the door, and if he says, I'm busy, you don't open the door anyway and say, well, I just need a minute, Mr. Rogers. You just go away.

Steve Cuden: How did you learn that? Where did that come from?

Barry Greenfield: I think I had the worst year of my life. When I was 12, I was living in Rhodesia and I was beaten by, teachers and I was beaten by students. And a few days after I turned 13, I went by myself and. And I flew to England and lived with my aunt for two and a half years. That was 1963. I was just turned 13 by a week. And I went to grammar school in England, which again, I talked myself into getting accepted. It was supposedly impossible to get into grammar school without your A levels, which I didn't even write. But I tore myself in by talking to the headmaster. And I spent two and a half years. And I think English grammar school taught me manners and told me decorum. And if you watch a movie like, Marigold Hotel or Downton Abbey Versus a Tom Cruise movie, there's a certain way of the English actors are. That I think I am when I'm going, to Kenny Roger. I think Kenny Roger has been approached by thousands. Maybe not at that point in his life, maybe it was hundreds at that point. But they, they know, they can see it so easily. If you're not really sincere, they can tell just like you can. You've done so many shows.

Steve Cuden: Ah, they can smell it in a second. it's pervasive around someone that's not ready. Not sincere. They can smell it. They can smell a snake oil salesman coming down the road.

Barry Greenfield: That's quite right. And music business is full of snake oil salesmen. Almost all snake oil salesmen.

Steve Cuden: Well, indeed. Talk to us for a moment, from the book about you mentioned already in the show, Graham Goldman, who I don't know that much about. Tell us about him and how he impacted your life and career more than.

Barry Greenfield: Anybody else, except for Kenny Rogers. Graham Goldman, I met when I was 19. I came back from Apple and I, went to university to become a lawyer. And after a year and a half, I wanted to know whether the Apple offer was real or just a fluke. So I decided I wasn't going to go to London. I was going to go to Manchester, where I was from, because Manchester had the Hollies, eventually the Stone Roses. They've always had an oasis. They've always had a music scene. So I go to Manchester and I stay at my aunt's, house, the one I lived with when I was 13. I'm now 18. And I get in a bus and I'm sitting upstairs in the bus with my guitar. And there's only one other person on the bus, a young girl my age. Her name is Bernice Seeger. We're in communication now 60 years later through Facebook.

Steve Cuden: Nice.

Barry Greenfield: I go to this girl on the bus and I say, I'm from Canada and I'm Here to sell my songs. Do you know anybody that does music in this town? She says, oh, yeah. Well, my boyfriend is Lal Cream, and he's in a band called Hot Legs. Now, Hot Legs had a song called Neanderthal Man. I don't know if you know that or not. With the number two in the States. Great, great song. And Neanderthal Man. Hot Legs morphed into a band called 10cc. Now, 10cc were like, so big in Europe and in England, like, phenomenally big. But they never broke in the States, apart from I'm Not In Love and Dreadlock Holiday. And Graham was the bassist in that band. And Graham wrote a lot of songs in the 1960s. He wrote bus Stop for the Hollies, no Mill Today for Herman's Hermits, Foia Love for the Yardbirds, Evil Hearted Soul for the Yardbirds. He was my icon. I learned all of his songs when I was a kid. Graham Googleman. So I phoned Lal Cream, and Lal Cream was very bright, not nice to me at all. He said, I don't do this. Phone my m. Manager. Phone his manager. Go see his manager. Walk over there 25 minutes. Magic does what everybody else does. Oh, these songs are so different. Phones. Graham Grooman, one of his artists, Graham comes over, listen to songs. We're gonna make a single. And that's when I wrote Sweet America. And the first time it was released before America was in England. And it was the BBC Record of the Week, my single. And the week before it was Another day by Paul McCartney. The week after it was the Carpenter's Close to you. So it was in good company. And once again, they wanted me to go on and make an album and stuff. I said, no, no, I just want to see if it worked. Not interested in being a rock star. Not interested in singing. Just wanted to see if it worked and came home. Now, Graham and I have maintained a friendship for 60 years now. And, we've written songs together over the years. We've had songs covered together. He is the best songwriter I've ever worked with. I'm talking about three figures, you know, 100 people plus. And the guy that wrote Bus Stop, wrote a great song. And I'm Not In Love. That's a very special song.

Steve Cuden: That's a great song.

Barry Greenfield: Absolutely. So that's how he came about. And he's helped me and guided me and, you know, he's been there for me. Not all the time, but most of the time. Yeah.

Steve Cuden: So you're saying something. I think that's very Valuable for the listeners to pay attention to. Sometimes in life, if you're lucky and there's a little bit of luck involved, you meet someone or someones who have a long term impact on your life. Not just from the initial meeting, but all the way through your life. Here's a good example of it with Graham Goldman and you, and that's something to pay attention to and to hang on to. I'm sure you agree.

Barry Greenfield: I do. And as there's only two types of things that you build walls or bridges. So if you build a wall, the person can't get to you and you can't get to them. you know, I don't need you anymore. I'm on to better, better things now, you know, please use my phone number or I'll change it, you know, or you build a bridge and you send them birthday cards and you don't be phony. You, if their mother dies, you pay attention to that. You do nice things.

Steve Cuden: You have built many bridges, that's the thing, but nothing but bridges. So I have to have you tell us the story, which I found fascinating of what you learned from John Lee Hooker, the great John Lee Hooker.

Barry Greenfield: A lot about playing live. Mostly, John was.

Steve Cuden: How long did you play with him? It's just, just a little bit, right?

Barry Greenfield: I played with him 13, dates. 18 days. I was with him probably 14 hours a day for 18 days. I was his sort of like guide, to the world. He didn't function well. He had trouble with waitresses. He had, he was.

Steve Cuden: What do you mean he had trouble? What does that mean?

Barry Greenfield: He just didn't like dealing with people. He found early on in the tour that I really wanted to be with him because I thought he was fascinating. And I helped him get through airports. I helped him get. I helped, him. The best story, I think the best story is he, he, like so many black artists I've worked with, want to get paid in cash. They don't. They've been, especially that generation. The point is, this is another example I worked with. They don't take a check. They've been had too many checks go boing, boing, boing. So John lee got paid $1,000 a night from the gate. So he got paid mostly in dollar bills. So me and John would go to John's room and we both sit in the same bed and it's true story, which is I guess, and he'd take out the money that was given. And I guess he. I've never known whether he could read or write, I don't know. But I don't think he could count. So I'd go, 1, 2, 3, 4, 10. 1, 2, 3, 20. Then I'd get to 100 and I put it on the side. And he never got stiff. There was always a thousand dollars every time. But I had to count it. And that sums our relationship up. He was so charismatic when he walked out on that stage. He had this very average band that would play 20 minutes off, 12 Bar Blues led by his son. And then he'd walk out and do maybe 20, 25 minutes of one chord and growl in the microphone. It was just so powerfully great. Never missed a second of it. And then he'd have to wait till the next night. And he had trouble maneuvering, finding the car or finding it had to be. I ordered for him. He wouldn't eat anything but, like, hamburgers. He wouldn't, like, go to Japanese restaurant, Chinese. That's not possible. He was a very. I liked him a lot.

Steve Cuden: He was a singular character.

Barry Greenfield: He was John Lee Hooker.

Steve Cuden: He was John Lee Hooker.

Barry Greenfield: Yeah. And we're sitting on a plane, me and him, on a Cessna. We're flying from Saskatoon to Thunder Bay. And the guy in the Cessna, there's only three of us, is smoking potential. And I'm shitting myself because I'm thinking, this guy's stone flying assessment. And, you know, I've only been in a Cessna a couple times. And they do bounce. They're not like a 747. They actually go with the wind, especially when you land it. And John says to me, I hope I'm doing this right, you know, Barry. What's that, John? I invented the word boogie. You invented the word boogie? Yeah, yeah. 9, 49, 48. My first single was Boogie. Chilling. I invented the word boogie. And it's true. And he told me that.

Steve Cuden: That's amaz. That's amazing. That's truly amazing. And what. What did he teach you about if you messed up a song?

Barry Greenfield: No one knows.

Steve Cuden: No one knows. Just keep going.

Barry Greenfield: Just, no, do it all the time. No one knows. But they do know if you're out of tune. But they don't know that you're out of tune. They just know that it don't feel right. So you've got to be in tune. And m. You got to sing in tune. Unless you're a singer like me or Leonard Cohen or Neil Young. And then it's sort of fashionable to be, okay, a little bit over and above. But kids today, I mean, they're so actually auto tuned to death that it's scary. I mean, everything is pitch perfect. And that's not how the human voice works.

Steve Cuden: He also. I'm going from your book, of course, but he taught you to smile and not rush.

Barry Greenfield: Yeah, Two very important things. I do that a lot. I sit down and I smile. And before I play a song, I always talk, sometimes five minutes, sometimes one minute, but I always talk. And a lot of my attendees are, the same people, so it doesn't surprise them. But when people come to a show, normally, you know, the band, they clap and they walk out and then they sit down and they ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Chin up a bit. And then they go on for 15 minutes. Then they say, thanks for coming and look at the hand and they read the name of the town. We love you, Buffalo, but I don't do that. I never know what I'm gonna say. And I. It's like one on one. It's like telling the truth to a person on the plane. You know, we talked about earlier about be honest and don't rush.

Steve Cuden: We're, heading toward the end of the show, but I have to ask you to tell the story about the Mike Nesmith Thanksgiving dinner. That's just a great story.

Barry Greenfield: Okay. I don't know if I can do the long, short version, but I'll do my best. I'm in the studio at RCA recording the Blue sky album with all these heavyweights, and I get a phone call from a friend of mine. He says, ah, I've been invited to Mike Nesmith's house for dinner.

Steve Cuden: So. So, by the way, stop for a moment and tell the audience who doesn't know who Mike Nesmith is, who Mike Nesmith was.

Barry Greenfield: Mike Nesmith was the interesting guy in the Monkeys. He was the tallest monkey and had the green, toucan. And he went on to make a huge amount of money because his mother invented whiteout. But he was the interesting one in the Monkeys. He was the one that believed that they should make music. And he's knocking his head against the wall for decades and, I think a pretty unhappy guy because of the Monkees. But he was in the Monkees who auditioned for the show. And he was a comedian, but he was also a songwriter and a guitar player and a very good one, a, poet. So the phone rings and would you like to go? My next announcement. Dinner. and it's Thanksgiving, and I had to. That meant leaving the studio at 4 o' clock to be. No leaving the studio at 3 o' clock to be there at 4 o'. Clock. And so I went to Kirschenbaum and I said, listen, I've been offered a chance to go to a monkey's house for dinner. Would that, be okay if I leave at 3? And maybe you can do some overdubs or, you know, do stuff that doesn't. Oh, absolutely, Barry. We went early anyway, because Thanksgiving, these guys want to go home for their families. So we're probably going to end then anyway, so let's just call it a day. At three. So we drive over the Beverly Hills and we get into this gate that's like 12ft high, 20ft wide, and there's a buzzer, and it says, push the buzzer. Do not leave car unattended. So push. My. My driver Peter pushes the buzzer. We drive this long, unwinding road to the top of the house, and there's a big four car garage. There's a big sign just at the one at the front. Do not leave car unattended. And the reason the sign is there is because there's this German shepherd the size of a house running around the car, like, literally running around the car, barking. And he didn't need a sign to know not to get out of the car. So out from the house down by the garage comes Nesmith. It looks like Mike Nas even had his green ton, which is unbelievable. And he speaks to the dog, and the dog only speaks German because the dog is raised and trained in German, he says, and the dog stops barking. But I was there from, 4 in the afternoon until maybe 1:32 in the morning. And the dog was in the room the whole time. Never bothered me. But I used to own a German ship, but they work. He was working. If I would have lunged at Mike, he would have tore me up. So we go, we have dinner with him and Joanne. He wrote a great song called Joanne, about his girlfriend. Her name was Joanne. And we have this dinner, turkey, and it's all American, and they've got flags for salt and pepper shakers and talking about 1960s music, because that's all we know. And he loves that. He loves the Beatles and he loves the Foremost, and he loves the Kinks, and I know a lot about that stuff. So he really likes talking to me about it. And then we finish our meal and we go and sit down in the living room, and Joanne leaves. And Joanne comes back in with an English tea tray. But on the English tea tray, there was no cups, no sources, no teapot. It was just like six or eight rows of pills. And on, the end of the tea tray was a hash pipe and a huge pile of hash. And he said, jeremy, are you ready for dessert? And so I don't really drink alcohol. I said, I'll have another cup of coffee, please. And Joanne, kindly enough, got me a cup of coffee. And him and Joanne. Because Pete didn't do any either, him and Joanne started mixing pills. And the funny part of the story is they knew a lot. So they would say they were like chefs. And he did most of the talking. He would say, well, if we do some finagogo with some, Mountain dew, then wait 10 minutes and have a blue guy, it'll be really great. So they both take a finagogo spin. And I'm watching this. I'm in this bin around a pill, and they take a second one and then switch. So this goes on for, like, two, three, or four hours. And they don't even really go nuts. They just. I guess that's normal. They were, like, high, and I. And they smoked a ton of hash. And I didn't know that then, but I know it now is as a contact high. So I'm really high, probably without really. And I'm having a tremendous time. I'm just loving every second of it. And their highest kites. And then she disappears, goes off, and Pete passes out on the couch, drinking too much alcohol. And Mike says, you want to play some music? And he hands me a guitar, and he has a guitar. And for the next hour and a half, we go one song each, One song each. And the first song I played was New York's Close Tonight. And the first song he played was Different Drum because I requested it because he wrote Different Drum, Linda Ronstadt and the Stone Ponies. And it was the most delightful night. And after that, after he played me some monkey songs, he played me Daydream Believer. I taught him how to play Play With Fire from the Rolling Stones catalog. It was just the two normal guys. And once again, normal. I never asked him any monkey stories. I never said, how is Davey? Is he really that short? Nothing like that. Just two guys. I guess he was older than me. And then he said, let's go sit by the pool. So we go outside, and he has these pool chairs that are exactly the same, if I'm correct, as the ones they used in Love and in Las Vegas for the Beatles Love Show. And the chair is like, a roundish chair with a left speaker and a right speaker. He says, sitting there. And for the next I know, 45 minutes, hour, he plays Paperback Writer over and over and over again. And he's raving about how great the Beatles is. And he's telling me how much he hates the Monkeys and how it's, complete crap and how, he's contractually, you know, has to do this. He's going to San Francisco tomorrow to do a concert and he gets paid ten grand for just doing nothing. And he says it's so hard, because there's just no growth and it's so restrictive. And I felt kind of sad because here was a guy living in Glen Campbell's house. He bought the house from Glen Campbell. There was a beautiful grand piano in the foyer. When you walked in, I thought, I wonder if Jimmy Webb ever played Wichita Lyman on that piano. And he is taking maybe 12, 15 pills, smoking ton of hash, drinking a lot of wine, raving about a, bass part Paul McCartney is playing. And he did go on to make lots of albums that he was proud of. But it was once again like Kenny Rogers and John Lennon. So nice, Steve. So kind, so un. Arrogant. So he was, as you know, I say he's about equal to me as a songwriter. He wasn't like. Like, if you're working with Jimmy Webb, how can you even compare the two? Or someone like, John Denver. I mean, he's. John Denver wrote Leaving on a Jet Plane. It's a masterpiece. You know, Mike was just a regular guy who wrote really good songs and he had a beautiful voice and he played his guitar really well. And I was pretty adequate by that point in my career. And I knew how to play my songs especially. And, it was another lesson learned. Because the lesson learned was, he really wasn't happy with the dishonesty of the monkeys. And I, was really sad to hear that, Steve, because he was so happy until then.

Steve Cuden: It's very interesting because when you're. Well, you probably know this as well as anyone, that when you're the artist, you know where all the problems are in the work that you've worked on. You know, when something didn't work, take it out and rearrange it and try it differently. Or you scrap the whole thing because you just can't get it. Whatever it is, you know where the problems are. But the public, what they hear at the end of the day is something that they fall in love with. But the artist is always. Not always, but most of the time the artist is hard on him or herself because they. They see where all the seams are, they know it can fall apart at any point. And he just sounds like he was so dissatisfied with his success that he was trying to almost maybe try to destroy it in some way.

Barry Greenfield: Well, the Monkeys have a storied history. I mean, where they'd go and tour, the three of them. He wouldn't be there, and then I guess he needed money or something that the Monkeys gave him. the Monkeys are a really weird thing because the Monkeys are really plastic. I mean, they had great songs written by other people.

Steve Cuden: Well, that's it.

Barry Greenfield: By Boys and Heart.

Steve Cuden: They're an absolutely spectacular act. But it was canned. It was made for them.

Barry Greenfield: Yeah.

Steve Cuden: They didn't create it themselves.

Barry Greenfield: I saw Boys to Men a few years ago, maybe six or eight years ago, and they weren't at the peak anymore. So they were doing their beautiful harmonies and their beautiful dance moves and sings. Only three of them left up in the four, but they were doing it to tape of, background music. And I think you should quit before you go to that level. You shouldn't drop your standards. You should quit. You should walk. I have a deal with my daughter, and my deal is, sweetheart, when my voice is not, I even do say, getting better, because I am getting better. I'm a better singer now than I was three years ago. tell me and I'll stop, because I don't think it's fair. I have. You know. Again, you don't want to compare anybody to Paul McCartney. But there is a question. When you watch the who, Roger Daltrey and Pete Townsend on tour this year, it's pathetic, them playing Substitute In My Generation at half tempo without Keith Moon or John Anwassel. It's not the who. It's Pete Townsend and John and Roger Daltrey. It's not the who.

Steve Cuden: They. They're. They're looking for money most of the time.

Barry Greenfield: Well, yeah, because Roger didn't write any of the songs. And Pete's got more money than brains, but he does it to help Roger out. And it's just not fair to pretend it's the who. And, you know, when John died in 1980, it put the end to all Beatle reunions. You know, some people suggested Sean Lennon or something. What a silly idea that was, you know, And I love Jimmy, Robert Plant, when he said, when John Barnum died, you can't do Led Zeppelin. And there's, you know, you can't do the Monkeys with three of them. You can't do Simon Garfunkel without Garfunkel. No matter how much you pretend I wrote the song, you know.

Steve Cuden: Well, but the beauty part about Simon and Garfunkel is all the songs were written by Simon, so he can go off and sing them, and he does.

Barry Greenfield: And I've seen them, and they're great. But Simon Garfunkel are the real deal. When Garfunkel sings bridge over 12 waters, and Garfunkel sings the harmony on, Emily, or, Rosemary, Parsley and Thyme, whatever the song is called, like, he's. It's this, it is that, it's that, it's that perfect. he's a big part of Simon Garfunkel. He's half of it. And, you can't. When the Jenga thing falls down, it falls down. You take the piece out. The Jenga thing falls down.

Steve Cuden: That is absolutely true. Well, I've been having just the most fun conversation for a little more than an hour now with the great Barry Greenfield, and we're going to wind the show down just a little bit. Now, you've just told us some incredible stories. Do you have one that's funny, weird, quirky, offbeat, or strange that can top what you've just given us?

Barry Greenfield: Well, the day I spent on Mars was very interesting. so I go to see Sonny and Cher, and I'm in their hotel room, and Sonny says to me, well, no one has ever done this before. Like, in those days, you could phone the hotel and say, sonny Bono. And they put you through the room. It was room 809, the Georgia Hotel, which my wife and I go to. So I'm in Sonny and Share's room, and I play them some songs, and he has a cassette, and he tapes one of the songs. And then Cher, he didn't say much during all the business part, which, like, 45 minutes, said, hey, Barry, why don't you, show us your beautiful city? So we go downstairs, and for, the next maybe hour, hour and a half, you know, hour and a half, we walk maybe 30 minutes down Georgia street, walk into an art gallery window shop, looking at shoes and stuff. And the whole time in this hour and a half, there's me and Cher, and there's sunny, 10 steps back. And Sunny is sort of like her dad. She's 23, 22, something like that. He's probably in his mid-30s, and I don't think they're getting along. So I have this chair thing. And some people are just much more beautiful in person than any picture. And maybe Cher isn't that photogenic like some people Are like, like maybe, The girl from Notting Hill is Julia Roberts.

Steve Cuden: Oh, yes, she is.

Barry Greenfield: Okay, well, there you go. Never met her, but Cher is like, whoa, there's something. I mean, that's what Sunny saw, I guess. So they can make money with this person. And so we have the most wonderful time. And she, she asked me about my family and she told me about her sister and she tells me about her mom and dad. She tells me about how she's not really sure about the business and her singing is getting better, but she's still not terribly confident but, you know, it's getting easier and stuff. This is before they hit the strategy of what she is now, which is, ah, an icon. And we get back to the hotel after an hour and a half and it's got a door you pull open. So I go to the door and then, as I say, raised the English grammar school. And I do, to this day, open the car door for my wife. I open the door and she kisses me on the cheek. And this chapter is called the Day Cher Kiss Me on the Cheek and says to Sonny, why can't you be more of a gentleman like Barry? And I smiled. I had a huge crush and, didn't learn much about music, but I learned about marriage, that it didn't feel right. And I thought it was weird that he, ah, was really good when he came talking about business. Told me all about how he met Phil Spector and how he worked with Phil Spector and how he brought Sharon sing background vocals on River Deep, Mountain High and stuff like that, which I thought was super interesting. But once we stopped talking about music, he was sort of at a loss and she was much more interested. So the way that this story ends in the book and the way I'll end it with you is I didn't meet Cher that day. I met Cherylin, Sarkassian, the real person. And I know that if you had Cher on your show and you said you remember 1968 when you walked in Vancouver with Barry Greenfield and you kissed on the cheek, she said no. And yet when she has 3 million stories like that, and I have one, to me, it's a big moment and I'm proud to share it. And, that's one of my favorite chapters because she's still around. And her. Her memoir came out November and February, two parts. I'm not going to read it, but it's. It was, it was. She was just so like Kenny Rogers. The same thing. Bobby Gentry, there's many of them.

Steve Cuden: Leaves a Big impression on you. But it's probably one of many stories for her in which she had encounters with people that was brief and away they went. And so that's why, for you, that stood out. I can understand that. Definitely. Right. So, last question for you today, Barry. you've shared with us a gigantic amount of wonderful advice throughout the whole show, but do you have a single piece of advice or tip that you like to give to those who are just starting out and they say, well, what do I do? Or maybe they're in a little bit trying to get to that next level.

Barry Greenfield: Level? Well, a few things that come to mind without prepping. One is find people that you think will tell you the truth, like your friends, your mother, your uncle, your partner. and then if you find they're not telling the truth, they just tell you what you want to hear. Don't ask them anymore because it's worthless. Secondly, arrive on time. Don't arrive five minutes early. And then sit outside the door until the clock hits 8 o' clock, and then knock on the door at 8 o'. Clock. Precise. Don't make promises you can't deliver. And don't exaggerate. Don't say Cher kissed you on the mouth and put her tongue down your throat when she kissed you on the cheek, because the truth rings true and exaggeration rings false. And the last thing I'll get to is the novel that I'm working on is called all youl Need Is Courage, based on all youl need is, love. And I think that to be successful in anything, whether it's being lore or architecture or driving a bus, have courage to stick to your guns. And if you know it's right, follow that route. And if you know it's wrong, turn around and walk backwards.

Steve Cuden: Well, I think that that's just truly four great pieces of advice. And I think that you've shared so much wonderful your, Your thoughts, your advice, and lots of great stories tonight. And I can't thank you enough for your. Your time, your energy, and for your wisdom throughout this whole show.

Barry Greenfield: Well, well, well, I don't want to say except for I really always knew I was going to enjoy talking to you. We planned this for many months, and as I said, I didn't really research who you were until a few weeks ago. But every email that we shared, which I think is important, you've always been kind, responsive and loving and real and respectful and all that shit. And it's been a true. Best podcast I've ever been on.

Steve Cuden: Oh, well, now I'm blushing. Thank you so much for those kind words, Barry. Now, as promised, we have a gift for all of you listeners. For your listening pleasure, Barry has generously lent us his powerful hit song, New York is closed tonight. So sit back and enjoy.

Barry Greenfield: My eyes are hurting badly? I'm breathing through my nose? My white shirt is turning gray? I should wear plastic clothes? It's getting dark so early Long before it's night and the neon freeway sign said New York's closed? New York's closed tonight? Reading's getting harder as I walk through the park? The trees are brown and dingy and no one walks the dog My dog died Thursday I couldn't sleep all night? And the man on the radio said New York's closed? New York's closed tonight? Call back your armies? The demonstration's true Everything is lost? There's nothing we can do? We told you long ago your solution wasn't right. Right. And today. The Pittsburgh Herald Red New York's closed? New York's closed tonight? Closed, closed New York. Sam M.

Steve Cuden: And so we've come to the end of today's Story Beat. If you like this episode, won't you please take a moment to give us a comment, rating or review on whatever app or platform you're listening to? Your support helps us bring more great Story Beat episodes to you. Story Beat is available on all major podcast, app, apps and platforms, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, iHeartRadio, TuneIn, and many others. Until next time, I'm Steve Cuden and may all your stories be unforgettable.