Steve Cuden: On today’s StoryBeat:

Patrick Oliver Jones: The best things that I ever did, or at least that helped me, was doing commercials. You know, I’ve done 60 plus national and regional commercials throughout my career. They’ve helped me not care because commercial auditions are very random and strange and you do the weirdest things in them. I’ve had to wrestle an alligator. I’ve had to pretend to do a slip and slide in a carpeted room. You do anything and everything and then you leave. And then, you know, again, nine times out of ten, you’re not cast, so you move on. And so it can be something that is not anything to do with your talent. It’s not personal. It’s about whatever they’re looking for.

Announcer: This is StoryBeat with Steve Cuden, a podcast for the creative mind. StoryBeat explores how masters of creativity develop and produce brilliant works that people everywhere love and admire. So join us as we discover how talented creators find success in the worlds of imagination and Entertainment. Here now is your host, Steve Cuden.

Steve Cuden: Thanks for joining us on StoryBeat We’re coming to you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My guest today, the actor, singer and podcaster Patrick Oliver Jones, has been in the performing arts both onstage and on screen for more than 30 years. Originally from Birmingham, Alabama, he brought his southern charm to New York City in 2008 with Dreams of Broadway, and he’s gotten close with roles in off Broadway world premieres, touring nationally with the Addams Family and Evita, and the pre Broadway cast of first Wives Club that never quite made it, having collaborated with Tony winning directors such as Jerry Zaks, Randy Skinner, and a favorite StoryBeat guest, Richard Maltby Junior. Hes gotten to perform alongside Broadway talents like Joey Fatone, Alfonso Ribeiro, Faith Prince, and Andrea McCardell, and he has found regional theater acclaim with Henry and Salt Award nominations for standout performances in Fun Home and Crazy for You. On camera, There have been numerous national commercials, award winning short films, and co starring roles on tv shows like Blue Bloods, Law and Order: Criminal Intent and Impostors. In 2022, he received the Communicator Award of Distinction from the Academy of Interactive and Visual Arts for his work in podcasting. He currently produces and hosts three performing arts podcasts, why I’ll never make it, which is in its 8th season closing night, which focuses on Broadway history and the Spotlight series in which he talks with those making a difference in the arts and beyond. For the record, I’ve been a guest on why I’ll never make it, discussing my career in show business and how I created Jekyll and Hyde the Musical with Frank Wildhorn. I’ve got to tell you, it was a lot of fun for me to do the show with Patrick, and I highly urge you to give it a listen. So for all those reasons and many more, it’s a real joy for me to welcome the exceptionally talented Patrick Oliver Jones to StoryBeat today. Patrick, welcome to the show.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Good to see you again.

Steve Cuden: It’s great to see you, too. So let’s go back in time just a little bit. You grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, and you’ve been at this game of acting, singing, performing and podcasting for a while now. But at what age were you when the bug to be in show business first bit you?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I was doing, like, church choirs and that kind of thing when I was really young, and, you know, so I was just basically learning, you know, how to sing with others and also took a few music classes when I was in school as well. So just basically, just learning music. I really didn’t think more beyond just having fun singing. But then I was cast as the shepherd boy in the fourth grade, for a Christmas production, and I had the, you know, I basically kind of started the show. I had a big solo, and so that was, I would say that was probably when I got the bug of like, oh, I’m singing by myself now. People are applauding, people are liking it. So I would say that that was what really gave me the bug of wanting to continue to do it more and be on stage and perform in that way.

Steve Cuden: You liked the idea of having that adulation come back at you from the audience, huh?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I gotta say, it was pretty good. Now, what’s funny about that first, because we had rehearsed it, obviously, but that first performance, I had to start at the back of the auditorium, back of the sanctuary, run down the center and onto the stage, and then start singing my song, you know, kind of welcoming people to Bethlehem, the main tour, that kind of thing. And, you know, we had practiced the staging, but we hadn’t practiced that run from the back. And so, you know, I’m, like, going down probably at a brisker, more nervous, like, energetic pace than I had anticipated. So by the time I got on stage, I was singing like this. And so I. But eventually I caught my breath. But, I always laugh whenever I think about, that first big solo that I had.

Steve Cuden: Well, I don’t know how it is for you, but when I go on stage, I always feel like I’m a little winded anyway. Like, I’m nervous and excited, and so you’re already breathing at a slightly different rate, aren’t you?

Patrick Oliver Jones: For sure. For sure, yeah. There’s that energy, you know, that first night that you have an audience, there’s that energy. Whether you have a big part, small part, there’s just something about once there are people watching you, those eyes that you can’t really see in the darkness out there, those eyes are on you, and you feel the audience, you know, laughing with you, plodding with you, and, you know, their gasps. Whatever it is, it’s, Yeah, it’s a different kind of energy that just hopefully will take every show that you do to a new level.

Steve Cuden: Okay, so you got that first taste at eight or nine years old, the fourth grade or so, right. And did you then start to do more and more shows? Did you get training somewhere?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, it was mostly through school. Fortunately, I went to a private, school that was attached to that same church that I was a part of. And so they had a music program. So throughout that, I was doing choirs, so I was learning the proper technique of singing, learning to read music, you know, just the basics of it. And so doing both the school and the church musicals was really my introduction to it. I didn’t really do anything outside of that until, I think it was my. I think it was either 10th or 11th grade that there was a community, production of a Christmas carol, and they were doing it like a radio show. So, you know, with the sound effects and everyone’s, like, walking up to the mic. I was cast as, you know, not only the ensemble, I was the announcer. So I was doing, like, those old timey commercials in between the various acts of the show. So I was, So I thoroughly enjoyed that. And, you know, it. It probably started me because I also majored in broadcasting, and I love doing radio, which is also why I love doing podcasting. So I think being in front of a microphone, has always been in the cards for me.

Steve Cuden: So that your college degree is in communication, then, right?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Broadcasting, mass communication.

Steve Cuden: Yep, mass communication. Were you doing theater in college as well? Did you continue your work that way?

Patrick Oliver Jones: I did. I did. I was a part of the International Thespian Society in high school, and I joined and I did, school plays there. And then once I got into college, then I continued to do it. I majored in theater one semester. I majored in music one semester, vocal performance. You know, I was trying to kind of find my niche, but then I, decided to, you know, this was back in the day where you, you got that real degree rather than a theater degree. So I chose broadcasting since that was an interest of mine. The technology of that, I had, in addition to the performing side of doing church, I had also been working with the audiovisual department. And so I was a part of working cameras, spotlight, doing audio. So it was kind of a natural transition for me to then want to do broadcasting and major in that.

Steve Cuden: So you were working with your voice, even if you weren’t working on stage, you were doing that in broadcasting of sorts. Were you also getting vocal training? Were you getting training as a singer?

Patrick Oliver Jones: The first time I got training, yeah, was when I was a freshman in college. I went to a, voice teacher there. For the first two years, you did class voice. So I think there was maybe like six or seven of us in the class. And then for the last two years, it would just be the solo, voice lesson that you would have. And so for the first couple of years, it was a mix of people that were soprano, alto, tenor, but, you know, I think they probably arranged it so that all the voice parts were there. So you kind of hear a mix listening to instruction of others, you’re hearing what they do, trying to learn from them, but then also when it’s your time to sing, you’re trying to, you know, get one on one with the voice teacher as well. And fortunately, he was, a Broadway person himself. He loved Broadway, and even though he was a classically trained, more operatic singer, he knew of my love of Broadway. So even though I had to do the italian arias and the french, and german art songs and that kind of thing, that was part of the, the requirement that I had for my vocal performance minor. He let me do Broadway stuff as well, and so I was able to incorporate what I was learning as a classical voice into a more Broadway setting.

Steve Cuden: Are you a tenor?

Patrick Oliver Jones: I’m more of a baritone, which is very interesting. When my voice changed at 9th grade, which is a little later than a lot of people, but that’s really when it changed. And I went from boy soprano to a bass in a matter of six months, you know. Ah. And when I say bass, I meant basically that’s about all I could hit when I would sing because I didn’t know what to do with it. And so gradually it went up to a baritone, and so that’s where I kind of sat, and it was very interesting. In my thirties, my voice started to kind of lighten up a bit, and I became, I guess, more of a bartender, and I started hitting notes. I started being able to reach range that I hadn’t in my teens and twenties. And so it’s been a very interesting process to see where my voice goes.

Steve Cuden: I think as people age, their voices tend to rise a little bit.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah. I remember Michael Crawford did an interview where he talked about his own voice, kind of hit his stride in his mid thirties, which is, you know, it was after that that he got phantom and was able to do the things that he did.

Steve Cuden: So were you always fascinated by Broadway style musicals, even as a kid?

Patrick Oliver Jones: You know, I wouldn’t say so, because growing up, my mom listened to Motown and those kind of like oldies, so I was always listening. I was the weird kid who, you know, at ten, 1112, I was listening to Duke of Earl and Gene Vincent and Ricky Nelson, and I was listening to music like that. but of course, listening to pop music of the day, but I loved all that oldie stuff, and that was what my mom obviously grew up on, so she was listening to that. So that was where, I guess, my love of music came from her as well.

Steve Cuden: And so when did you then pick up musicals as something that you were fascinated by?

Patrick Oliver Jones: I would say that that happened in high school. Doing my first one was fiddler on the roof. That was in the 9th grade, and so doing that, and then the next year was West side story. This was in a different time, a different era, but I was the tallest and whitest pepe in West side story. but still, it was great to do that music. I mean, that score is phenomenal.

Steve Cuden: Sure.

Patrick Oliver Jones: You know, and then the next year, I did my first lead role in Oklahoma. And so doing that, I was curly. I led the show. And so gradually, as I became a better singer, as I became more confident in my ability, that’s when I started, I think, listening to the musical cast recordings, those soundtracks, a lot more. And it was phantom when I first heard that, so that was like 88, 87. I think when that came out, when I first heard that, I was like, this is amazing. You know, I’ve been listening to classic musicals, and then there’s this mega bombastic musical phantom of the opera. And that was what made me, okay, if I can do that kind of music, if I can perform that kind of score, that’s what I want to do. And so gradually, once I got into college, that’s the approach that I wanted, was to focus more on the Broadway music.

Steve Cuden: And you wanted to do musicals at that point, it wasn’t like you just were wanting to do straight acting. You wanted to be in musicals, I assume?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah. I mean, as much as I had done a few handful of straight plays, musicals are always what I gravitated toward when it came to auditioning.

Steve Cuden: You’ve also done both drama as in Evita, and you’ve also done comedy, as in the Addams family and so on. Do you have a preference? Do you prefer to do one over the other?

Patrick Oliver Jones: You know, it’s very interesting. I probably lean more toward comedic, as it’s obviously a lot more fun to do. The audience is laughing, and that’s a different energy, but it really has come down to casting as much as I am. you know, typically throughout most of my, I was the baritone leading man kind of roles. Those were the love interest. That was really what I did. But it was interesting. As I transitioned into my thirties, I started getting the character actor more, which I love doing, and getting these more character bit parts that were a lot of accents. There was a lot of, you know, pratfalls or physical comedy. So getting to incorporate that, which I hadn’t really done in my twenties, getting to incorporate more of that comedic flair, I think, is what led me into choosing to want to do that more.

Steve Cuden: I’ve yet to ask a single person that question in the course of doing this show for the last seven years who has not said comedy.

Patrick Oliver Jones: It’s just more fun, and that’s why we do this, right? It’s just more fun.

Steve Cuden: Why would you do this if it wasn’t fun? I mean, it’s a lot of hard work, and you’re exposing yourself to the public all the time. Why wouldn’t you want it to be fun? And yet, comedy is certainly a lot more fun. It’s also a lot more fun to get laughs rather than have people sitting there in silence for two and a half hours or whatever it might be.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Exactly.

Steve Cuden: So let’s talk about what it is. When you do book a gig and you get a script, aside from reading it, what are the first things you do? How do you look at a script in terms of what you’re going to do in your piece of it?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I mean, fortunately, I would have auditioned already, so, at least I’ve gotten parts of it, the scenes, especially if it’s a new show that I don’t know. So, at least I have some clue and some feedback from the director in the audition room. There’s at least some clue of the direction of what the character is going to be. So then, once I’m cast and I have the full script, then. Then it’s a matter of, I try to get an overarching storyline of where I’m going, so I really want to know where it is that I end up. Where do I need to end the play? So then I can work my way backwards and figure out, all right, how am I going to get there. Obviously, the director and music director are a big part of that as far as, like, how we’re going to navigate that path. But at least for myself, I like to know where I end before I begin.

Steve Cuden: And is that what you do in terms of developing the character is to figure out where. Where you’re headed so you can then come back to the beginning and know I’m going to develop the character this way?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. Because early in my career, when I got a script, I just highlighted all my lines and then I showed up to rehearsal, you know, so I’m just kind of very rudimentary trying to figure out the process. But the more I did plays, the more I realized that I need to know on page four where I’m going to be on, page 73. Because how I make these choices, how I say these lines, the way I interact with other people that I may fall in love with at the end or I may be enemies with at the end, that needs to start at page four, you know? So it actually took me a while to finally learn, oh, I actually need to go backwards rather than going forwards with the script because I remembered this was a. I I think about it. I used to not read the script because I didn’t want to know the ending before I got to rehearsal, which was just, you know, this is dumb, stupid teenager, me.

Steve Cuden: You knew you were going to be in it, didn’t you?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Right. Right. I just knew I had these lines. I knew I was this part, but I wanted to kind of find out what happens. I didn’t want to know. Just a bit ignorant, a bit naive. but yes, eventually, once I learned that it really is about storytelling, not about, yes, you want to have a good voice. Yes, you want to have a good character, be a good actor. But it’s really about storytelling, and it’s really about fulfilling the character’s journey from one point to the next and taking the audience with you.

Steve Cuden: Well, a wise professor of mine once said, and I think quite rightly, that the writer, the director, the producer, the actors and so on, the designers, they all have to know exactly where you’re going. The audience should not know where you’re going.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yes.

Steve Cuden: So it’s important that you have a clue so that you’re not tipping your hat either.

Patrick Oliver Jones: And that’s really the balance, because in acting, obviously, these lines have to come off the cuff. They have to seem like.

Steve Cuden: Just like they’re happening naturally.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, right. They say something, I say something back. It’s a conversation. We’ve never done this before, you know, quote, unquote, we’ve never had this before. We’re figuring this out as the audience is as well. And so there has to be that balance of kind of, let’s see where this goes. And there is that energy. I remember in one of the plays that I got to do in college, so for our university, we just did a week long run. At least we didn’t just have a weekend. We got a full seven performances of it. And I remember going through the process, I was never one of those who could just cry on command. That’s just never been my skill. Some people can just do it, and, you know, that’s. That’s one of their gifts. But for me, I’m much more of a physical actor first, and it just seeps into the inner, you know, I’m more of an outward actor than go inward. And so that’s generally been my process. But there was one night, this was about midway through the run, where it’s a very emotional scene. It’s to Jillian on her 37th birthday. If you. If you’ve read that play, it was made into a movie. But there’s this one point at which he’s. He’s. He’s talking to his dead wife. And in that particular moment, in that particular night, I started to cry. I really felt like I was in the moment. It wasn’t just me delivering lines. I wasn’t aware of acting. I was aware of telling the story. And so it was one of the first moments that I realized what it meant to really be in the character and not just performing the character.

Steve Cuden: Well, you can talk to lots of different actors, and they can go an entire career and never quite get there.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. Yeah. Because it is so easy. Especially, like I said, going from outward in, it’s all about presenting yourself as the character. It’s all about gesticulating this way or using your voice and this way. You know, it’s all about those outward signs, and it may never seep in. And that’s always been my process to start with that outward, but make sure it keeps getting deeper and deeper.

Steve Cuden: That’s certainly a little bit different in musicals, only in the sense that you’re able to actually get your emotions out through these wonderful vehicles called songs. How hard do you work to this day at perfecting a song, both the singing of it and the memorization of it and so on. How hard do you work at that?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I would say I’ve tried different things throughout the years, but I remember something that, Tony, Bennett was giving an interview, and he was talking about how he memorized things, and now he would just say the lines over and over and over again. And for him, that was how he learned the lyrics first, and then he added music to it. Now, you know, he sang thousands, thousands of songs in his career. So he got a lot of practice doing that. For me, I’ve tried that process, but for me, the music is really what sinks in that memorization. And so I do tend to, yes, I’ll go through and I’m telling the story. I try to plunk those notes and try to add and see where the. Where the emotion is going, because then I think that helps me navigate and also memorize the words, but it helps me navigate the emotion of it, because it’s that balance of, especially if you’re giving, like, a love song or something, where you’re going through a lot of turmoil, of giving that vulnerable, tender performance, but yet you have to have a strong core. You have to be supporting the song underneath it. And it’s that balance of a Strong, firm core, yet being so tender and vulnerable with the actual vocal. And that’s very tough to do. So it is a workout of sorts to navigate those softer parts. And for me, singing full voice, always the easiest thing to do. Those tender moments take a little more when you have to bring it back, but give just as much breath support.

Steve Cuden: Does that take more time to figure out?

Patrick Oliver Jones: I would say so, because depending on the song, like classical music, it’s very interesting. Classical musicals tend to be a little harder. For me, for example, a song that I did for an audition was, do I love you from Cinderella. You know, do I love you? It never goes above an e, but for whatever reason, the way that song sits, it’s always been a difficult one for me to navigate. Yet I did a new musical, contemporary musical called extraordinary ordinary. It went up to, a g, and I could just soar with that, and the singing was very easy. So it really depends on the song itself. And classical musicals tend to have through line that can be a little tricky to navigate because it’s almost like the notes you sing aren’t as expansive, and so you have to kind of stay a bit more constrained within the box of that musical, how dependent do you.

Steve Cuden: Think the words are, or are you depending upon the words in order to sing a certain kind of note? If it’s an open word and open vowels, versus something that’s closed off and clipped, that certainly must impact the way that you attack the song, for sure.

Patrick Oliver Jones: And that was actually one of the biggest things that my college professor, my voice teacher, that he instilled in me was that I tended to focus more on the consonants than the vowels. I would clip things. I would get to that vowel. I would hold out m’s and n. And in classical voice, you don’t do that. No, it’s all about those long vowels, and the consonants just kind of break up the vowel so you can get back to those beautiful notes. So in Broadway musical theater, you have to tell that story. It has to be more conversational. So, yes, the vowels and where they’re placed and the consonants and how they sit, it is a bit of navigating. And for me, if the music is written correctly, and I say correctly in quotes, because it’s very subjective, but if it’s written in such a way, then the words should just come out very easily. And, for example, that contemporary musical I mentioned, extraordinary, ordinary. It was written in such a way that the words and music matched perfectly. And I was able to really sing that song very easily because, you know, for the part that I had, I.

Steve Cuden: Think that’s the hallmark of Steven Sondheim, is that things match perfectly. Though he is also notoriously, sometimes very difficult to sing.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Very difficult, because he has that left hand down in the accompaniment, doing something different from the right hand that you’re trying to sing. And. Yeah, and you have to match, you know, I have to find a melody that may not necessarily be what he’s playing. You may have to find a rhythm that’s not necessarily what’s in the music. So, yeah, it can be a little tricky with his stuff.

Steve Cuden: So you mentioned auditioning a moment ago. I’m just wondering, do you have a particular philosophy toward auditioning, how you approach auditions?

Patrick Oliver Jones: I would say that the overall thing, obviously, there’s just learning the piece. So just the basics. I rarely actually memorize it unless they specify. They don’t normally specify that. So I’m not so concerned with memorizing it. I just want to know it enough so that I’m not buried into this, the side, whenever I’m doing the audition, the biggest thing I always look for. And this harkens back to what we were saying. I look for that funny moment, even if it is the most serious monologue or serious scene, I look for that one moment where there’s a wry grin, a, smile, something that the character does that is a light moment. And so for me, that’s at least one way that I approach audition to at least show the director. I’m trying to not just stick with what’s on the page, I’m trying to add some layers to it.

Steve Cuden: Like all actors who audition, you don’t get cast every single time. How do you deal with not being cast? Are you at a point now where it’s just another day, or do you dwell on those things?

Patrick Oliver Jones: I think it really depends on what I’m auditioning for at this point. Yes, I know that the odds are against me, being cast. So I do know that. So that does help, mentally, at least. But for certain shows that I really want, and then I don’t get it, or I don’t get the call back. Yeah, there is still that disappointment, really more now I get disappointed with myself if I know I didn’t sing as well as I could have, or if I messed up lines or I didn’t approach the character the way that I’d been rehearsing. Something happened in the room. I more get upset with myself if I don’t think I delivered what I wanted to deliver in the room. But, yes, you’re right. At this point, I don’t take the rejection as personally well.

Steve Cuden: It just means that somebody else’s part is what it usually means.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Exactly.

Steve Cuden: It’s not your part. Would you say that you’re still a very detail oriented auditioner? Are you a nervous auditioner or are you past all that?

Patrick Oliver Jones: You know, it’s interesting is that I’m not really nervous until I’m in the waiting area. Then for those five minutes or so, when I know I’m about to go in, the nerves will start to kind of bubble up. It’s not debilitating, obviously, but it does kind of bubble up. But once I’m in the room, once I’m saying hi to the people, and then I get into the material I prepared, generally, that’s when things start to down a bit.

Steve Cuden: So once you have actually been cast in a show and you go into rehearsals, what is it that you’re looking for from a director? What is it you want during a rehearsal period?

Patrick Oliver Jones: The first thing I’m looking for is I’m looking for, basically, that director to tell me exactly what to do, which some actors don’t like. But for me, I like to know, okay, I’m moving here. I’m going there. it’s kind of like the puzzle pieces. I need to know where the puzzle pieces are fitting together and write down my blocking. I’m going here now. I’m going there. And then I need the director to just let me run it and run it. And then from there, that’s when the collaboration can begin. I like having, basically, it’s almost like that color by numbers. I like to know where the spots are that I need to color, and then we’ll work together as far as exactly what color they’re going to be, but I need to know where I’m going first.

Steve Cuden: You’re not looking for line readings, are you?

Patrick Oliver Jones: No, no, no. It’s more, it’s more like if I’m approaching the character, like, say he’s a stern father, so he’s a bit more, exact with his children and he’s doing this. And so I’m approaching it that way. If the director says, all right, but remember, you still love them. Remember, you are trying to get your son to do this. So try to use a different tactic than just stern task. It’s like, oh, okay. So it’s those kind of like, direction, those type of like, I see where you’re going now. Shift it this way. And when it’s a collaboration like that, because there’s a lot of times where, a director will give me something to do and we’ll go through it a couple of times and, maybe I’m messing up the line or maybe I keep walking in this direction. So I’ll ask the director, can we try it this way? You know, I’ll give him a diff. And the best directors, at least for me, allow me to do that. And sometimes that is the best way because it fits me, it fits my voice. But then other times, as soon as I’ll do it, I’ll be like, that didn’t work, did it? He’ll like, no, it didn’t. And then we’ll go back to his way.

Steve Cuden: I think all good directors know how to adjust actors, and each actor has their own sort of little quirks of the way they work. So a good director has to adjust to the actors as well. What would you say are a lesson or two or something important that you’ve taken away from the best directors you’ve worked with?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I would say that the best directors that I’ve seen work, you know, whether it’s, you know, Broadway, national tours or regional, the one common through line of the best directors that I’ve worked with. They have a passion for the piece. They know it inside and out. They come prepared. When you ask a question, they’re right there with it. I don’t need a director to know everything, but as long as they have a passion for the piece and as long as they’re dedicated, I see that they know this piece better than I do, and so that gives me confidence in them. It lets me know I’m in a great place. So I would say that that’s probably one of the best things that. That I get, is being able to just trust the director and know that I’m in good hands when it comes to whatever direction we’re going to go in.

Steve Cuden: You know, I’m putting you on the spot a little bit. Can you think of an experience you had with a director in which they gave you a really great direction and what that was, and maybe it stuck with you all these years?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, there was, this one director, whenever I was in Tennessee, I was doing, the tempest. It’s the only Shakespeare play I’ve ever done. The one and only one I’ve ever done. So I was playing Ferdinand. He’s the young lover in it. And I don’t know how long we were into the run. You know, maybe a week, maybe we’re into the second week. And the director, she came into the dressing room. So this was before we were about to do a show, and she may have meant it very flippantly, but she came in and, you know, was saying hi, and she said, patrick, you gonna show up tonight? Right, right. And so at first, I was kind of taken aback, like, yes, yes, I’m gonna be there. But, you, know, once she left, and, you know, people were kind of looking at me like, oh, you know, but I. Once I started thinking about what she meant, I was like, oh, you’re right. This whole time, I’ve been so worried about, it’s, Shakespeare, those lines, you know, the meter of it, the actual words, you know, I get 95%, you know, but 5%, maybe my, additions or subtraction with Shakespeare, it’s got to be 100%. So, you know, I was so focused on that that I wasn’t showing up. The words were showing up, but I wasn’t showing up. And so it was very interesting. After that, I started to not, you know, still get the lines out, but I wasn’t as obsessed or worried over those as much. Then I could actually be Ferdinand and fall in love with this girl and see where that goes. And so it was very interesting in her, very flippant, and she may have minute a little more mean way than it came across, but with that, it forced me to kind of look at my own self and bring more of me into the performance.

Steve Cuden: Well, I’m gonna guess that she was, stewing about it for days. Like, why can’t this guy just get into it? Let it go. And she finally just popped off and said it. It was a passive aggressive moment for her.

Patrick Oliver Jones: I’m sure it was. And, you know, if she knew that I remembered that, she might be like, oh, my gosh, I’m so sorry. I said, you know, she would probably apologize, but, oh, I’m betting she wouldn’t.

Steve Cuden: Be apologetic at all.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, you know what? She was actually the kind of director who’d be like, yeah, that’s what I said, and that’s what I meant. Yeah. But, But at the same time, however, she meant it the way that it’s, as you see, that was, you know, 30 years ago, you know, when I was just kind of beginning my professional career, and it stuck with me.

Steve Cuden: Well, Shakespeare is particularly difficult to memorize for most people. Not everyone. Some people find it quite easy, but most people, I think, find Shakespeare a little bit more of a challenge than in traditional, modern English. Do you have a particular technique for memorizing lines? Are you a good memorizer in general?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, as I said, I’m about a 95 percenter. But, yes, in general, there have been one of the, shows that I did just a year ago was an off Broadway show. So this was during the strike, so I no longer had my day job. So the writer strike and sag strike, so I no longer had my day job, sort of, than I was doing off Broadway in New York. So I had 6 hours of rehearsal to learn my part in this play, and it’s only a four person play. I’m one of the four people. I had four scenes, and except for one of them, they were huge monologues. And the other scene partner, she would just kind of have a line here and there, and then I would go off again. So it was a lot of material, dense material, and written weirdly because he’s a quirky character. And the first week, I’m getting maybe, like 80% of it, paraphrasing the rest, and the next week, maybe 90. So it took me a while to get it, and then finally, three weeks into it, she’s like, do we need to help you? And I was just like, no, I just need to get it. And it was the hardest thing, I think by fourth or fifth week, I finally was getting it. 99.9%. I don’t know if I ever got it perfectly. But I. I was. I then started to know when I was messing up. Cause before I didn’t know when I was messing up. I didn’t know the script well enough. Again, 6 hours of rehearsal. So there’s that.

Steve Cuden: What did you do? I mean, did you just have to sit there and brute force try and memorize?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, I mean. I mean, it really was a matter of. Well, I tell you what I did. I did a recording. Cause I was able to watch the guy who did it before me before I stepped in, because, it was a replacement contract. So I got to watch the guy did before me. And I actually recorded a couple of the scenes that he did. So I would then go through and read the script while listening to him do it. And so that did start to help me. But it was only once. Then I started to say the lines. It was one of the ones where I just had to grunt it out. There was really no technique. It was just stick with it, keep saying it, and keep saying it over and over again. And so, even during the performance, I would, you know, before the show, I would do that first scene, read through it, go through it in my head, perform it. Then I’d come off stage, go to the next scene. Fortunately, I had a break in between each of the scenes, so then I would focus on the next scene. And I did that for four weeks before I finally was able or five weeks before I was able to finally put away the script.

Steve Cuden: It took you a little while to get your handle on it?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Very much so.

Steve Cuden: When you are working, through a show over time, are there things that you’re still looking for character wise and the intensity of it, or however it is that you’re performing as you’re working over time? How do you keep from not becoming complacent? Are you seeking new things as you’re going?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. It’s interesting that there’s a routine and a ritual that certainly helps. And knowing that you’re going to move this way on this line, you’re going to go here on that line. That kind of routine does help me. And so that’s part of the memorizing. But that’s also. It’s almost like that, that map that I’m given, like point a, point b, point, and I know exactly where I’m going. And that actually helps keep it the same for every audience. So that way, I’m not changing things. It helps keep me on the right track. And so it’s almost like I’m just navigating it the same way every night. But I will say that, you know, most, contracts are a couple of months, so you don’t really get this. But when I did the national tour, which was a year and a half or other things, you get a bit more time to. All right, well, let’s. What if I try it this way? Or there will be. There will be times where a line all of a sudden kind of clicks in a different way. It’s like, oh, maybe I’m not in love yet with this line. I thought I was in love here. No, maybe I’m still trying to figure it out. So I’m going to try that tonight and see what that takes me, or different things like that. So it can really only be a journey once you’re given time to have it.

Steve Cuden: Once you’ve settled in and have a comfort level, then you can try different things. But until then, you really have to keep at that routine.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, right. The routine is really for me. What grounds me for sure?

Steve Cuden: I know there are lots of actors who don’t think that way, who they just free flow every time they’re on stage. But those actors, I think, tend to be sort of geniuses at memorizing, where they don’t worry about the memorization part. They’re just going at it somehow. Those are not frequent. They’re not common. But when they are, it’s kind of amazing if you watch them night after night. You already mentioned about going on the road, and we know you did the Adams family and Evita on the road. Which one was the year and a half?

Patrick Oliver Jones: A year and a half was Adams family.

Steve Cuden: Adams family.

Patrick Oliver Jones: And then nine months for Evita.

Steve Cuden: I’m curious. You’ve done these, what we call bus and truck tours. Right. So tell us about the challenges of being an actor in a bus and truck tour. What are the things that an actor that’s thinking about being in the business and has to go through that experience? What did you learn from doing it that is important for others to know that may not know it?

Patrick Oliver Jones: I think the biggest thing is stamina, because first, off, I’m someone who loves to travel. So I love being in a new city. I actually love hotels. I like just kind of showing up to a new place and exploring it, seeing what happens. So the travel part of it was actually very fun and easy. For me, but the stamina comes from, well, you know, you finished a show at eleven, everybody’s hungry, everybody’s going out, we’re getting drinks, we’re doing. So I had to kind of learn how to pace myself and not always stay up till 03:00 in the morning or, you know, and so it’s a matter of finding a, I guess, getting back to that word routine. Finding your routine within the, touring schedule that allows you to rest, that allows you some alone time, but also then companionship with, the other people.

Steve Cuden: How long did it take you to find that? I mean, was it months? Was it weeks? Was it half a year? How long did it take you?

Patrick Oliver Jones: I would say the first one was Adams family. That was the first one I did. I would say that probably within the second month or so, I think is when I finally started to kind of hit a routine. Because at the same time, you have to remember that for the most part, unless you’re in a city multiple m weeks, you don’t really get a day off because you’re traveling on Monday, and then you perform Tuesday through Sunday. You travel on Monday, perform to, you know, and you repeat, repeat. Unless you’re in a city for three weeks, then you’ll have that Monday off. But for the most part, it was, it would be weeks and weeks without a quote, unquote, day off. I think if you have a good cast, which fortunately I did, I had people that I could gravitate towards and good friends that I made on that tour. So having a good cast, that can really be a supportive part of it, and that’s something that you can’t really help because I heard from other people that this, you know, Adams family in particular, was like one of the best cast they’ve been with because they’ve been in such bad situations before. And for me, I was like, oh, wow. So I guess people do really have it rough sometimes, and the cast can really make a difference as far as whether you enjoy your process or not.

Steve Cuden: Oh, I would think, no doubt, if you’re in a situation where you’re not syncing up with the other people off stage, you’re really in a big bind there. What do you do during the days in the week, when you’re sitting there for the week during the days, do you go looking around the cities?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Is that what you do mostly exploring it? Yeah, especially if it’s a city I’ve never been to. Like, I remember we were in San Antonio for a week, and I’ve been to other parts of Texas, but not that one. And San Antonio is so different from other, Texas cities. You know, it has that river that goes through it, and then you have all these shops and restaurants that are along the river, and it’s just a different city set up than, like, Dallas or Houston or something like that. But that’s just one example. You go to all these cities, whether it’s la or maybe it’s a smaller city, you know, like East Lansing, Michigan. We had big cities and more medium sized smaller cities, and it really is just a matter of, for me, I judge a place by its food, so I’m always going out and trying The Local cuisine, and that, for me, is kind of how I remember places that I’ve been.

Steve Cuden: You must have a cast iron stomach.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I mean, I tend to go for certain things, you know, like when you’re in Cincinnati. I love chile. Cincinnati is known for its chili. All right, well, let’s try this and see how good it is. Kansas City, they’re known for their barbecue, you know, these different places. And so I try to have whatever the cuisine is there.

Steve Cuden: Well, I think you’re very lucky, because I have a little bit of a sensitive stomach, and if I were traveling around like that, I would have a lot of problems. So I’m glad to hear that’s not, your issue. How do you manage your life back home when you’re on the road for a year and a half? What do you do?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Do? Well, I was very fortunate for Adam’s family. I was able to. I was subletting at the time, so I was able to let go. And I had no. No apartment to keep track of or sublet. So that was really wonderful. So, really, the only bill I had was my cell phone. So that was. That was. I was very fortunate, that one. With Evita, I had a partner at the time. I had an apartment to keep track of, you know, I mean, fortunately, he was there, but I still kind of had to keep up with things. So it was, it was definitely a, process of, you know, giving yourself time alone to then take care of those emails or other things you got to do. And, you know, and not just always out and about, but you had to.

Steve Cuden: Plan that out a little bit ahead of time, didn’t you?

Patrick Oliver Jones: I mean, it’s kind of week to week, you know, like, you know, when the bills are coming up, so you make sure those are paid. And then, you know, like, when I had the apartment and I had a partner back here in New York, then it was a matter of obviously keeping up and staying in contact and, you know, communicating every day. And, you know, he would come on the road every now and then, so he did get to see me. But, especially if you have a relationship back home, it’s so important to maintain that connection because, yeah, there were some days where I was exhausted. There were some performances which weren’t that great for me. You know, you go through those ups and downs, on the tour, and, yes, you have a cast there to support you. But if you, if you’ve got someone back home, if you’ve got a significant other, then that can be your. Your kind of grounding force to really give you, okay, a time to just kind of let it all out, vent it, and then get on with the next day.

Steve Cuden: I would think it’s almost impossible to go on the road for nine months or a year and a half and be Perfect the whole way through.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, it is. It’s impossible. And what’s so interesting, Jerry Zaks was the director of Adam’s family, and there would be times I forget what city we were in. It may have been maybe in Boston or Chicago. But he came, and he was just kind of checking up on the show, and then he started rewriting some of the jokes. It’s like, all right, well, let’s say that. No, no, no. Don’t say that. Okay, try this. Use this punchline and sit. So, I mean, the show was still kind of morphing itself. I think Jerry, maybe he was bored with the jokes or just thought something was funnier, but that’s the kind of director that he is. He’s all about that comedy and the timing of punchline.

Steve Cuden: Maybe he was looking, the energy was maybe sagging a little bit in his eye, and he was looking for some way to punch it up a little bit.

Patrick Oliver Jones: And I tell you, the biggest way to punch up the energy of a cast is for someone half an hour before the show to call out, and then the sub is going in, especially if it’s maybe their first time or second time. Yeah. The energy of the cast, just like everyone’s on high alert and they’re just ready. Because I remember the first time that I went on for lurch, I knew the lines because all he does is grunt. But I followed him. I followed the lurch around. I got to shadow him. So he’s really, he has so many props, so many things. And the first time I was on Douglas Sills was my Gomez, and he was so wonderful. And that if I was ever in the wrong position, he would just, like, you know, guide me over here or if I was not in the right place. He just came to me, you know, he was very accommodating, knowing that it was my. But everyone’s just on high alert and is ready to go with wherever I happened to go, whether it was right or not.

Steve Cuden: So the opposite of doing long rehearsal periods and then running for a long time is working on a television show, which you’ve done a few times. This is, you’re going in, and you may be only there for the day or maybe a day or two, whatever it might be, and you are jumping on a moving train with everybody else knowing what they’re doing. Everyone else is in their character. They know it perfectly, and you are literally thrusting yourself into the middle of their world. How is that for you? How is that different for you? How do you approach it?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, fortunately, like, I’m thinking about blue bloods. That was my very first one with, and I got to be in a scene with Tom Selleck. So I was thrilled, thrilled to be able to do that. And, yeah, you really are kind of thrown in. You may get the assistant of the assistant assistant director who kind of tells you where to sit, and you’re just in this trailer by yourself, and you don’t really know where to go or where anything is. So, yeah, you’re very much alone. You don’t get any rehearsal time. It’s not theater.

Steve Cuden: No. You walk in, you gotta know it. You gotta hit.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Right? Right. So, fortunately, I just had the one line. I was a reporter, and I was asking him a question, so I just made sure I knew my line backwards and forwards. So it really was like they set up the shot, and then they just said an action, so you hope you deliver it in the way that they want it. And I think we did it, like, seven times. This angle, that angle saying it over and over again. So the process itself, like me actually on camera, was maybe. Was maybe 30 minutes, but there was a long wait before, and then there was maybe some time in between, because I remember there was lunch, and then we came back to it. So, yeah, maybe 15 minutes on this side of lunch. 15 minutes on that side of lunch. But, but, yeah, it was, it was such a quick process. And then I was done, and I was like, oh, okay, I guess that’s it. And, yeah, and then I, you know, and then you never have to think about it again. which is very unlike theater did.

Steve Cuden: You have to work at adjusting your energy, which has got to be very different than working on a stage.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. And for that one, it really is all about. Same thing. Same thing. Same thing. For all seven takes. I needed to. If I moved my hand, it had to be moved the same time at the same line, you know, because they’re getting it at different angles.

Steve Cuden: Continuity. Sure.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Absolutely. And so I was very much aware of. Okay, say it the same way. Move the same way. Yeah. So, because, once you’re on set, especially for, you know, if you’re just there for the day, you’re. The director’s not pointing you out, they’re not coming to you and say, let’s talk about this. No, say your line, move on.

Steve Cuden: They have cast you, hopefully, because you’re the right person for that moment.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Or I fit the jacket. Yes, you fit the jacket.

Steve Cuden: They’ve cast the jacket.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Right, exactly.

Steve Cuden: All right, so let’s talk about your podcast. You’ve done three different podcasts.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yes.

Steve Cuden: Let us talk about what your three different shows are. Tell us why I’ll never make it. Tell us what happens in that show. I’ve been on it, but you explain it.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I brought you on as the, first guest of season eight. Yes. It’s been around, and thank you for that. Oh, it was a joy to have you. And it’s been around since 2017 started out with me and a co host, and we were just kind of spitballing ideas as far as what we wanted to talk about. We knew, knew we wanted it to be in the performing arts of some which a way. And so we basically just thought about some ideas, and we created, like, a 20 minutes episode. We just wanted to kind of see what we were thinking and how we would riff off of each other. And so we talked about different things in the arts, and we had this one segment in it called why I’ll never make it. And so, you know, he would say, you know, I’m not a great dancer, or, you know, I don’t really, do this very well. You know, these are the reasons I’m not going to make it, because I don’t do this this. And when we had people listen to it, that was the segment that they loved. They loved the title of it, the segment of talking about things. And so that kind of became how we took that and let the show kind of fall from there, and we would bring on guests to talk about similar things.

Steve Cuden: Well, it’s a catchy title right from the start.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah. And fortunately, as they say, you know, the name is everything. There is no other title like, that in podcasting. So it’s a one of a kind.

Steve Cuden: It’s absolutely a unique title, you know, and, and it has a kind of a negative feeling connotation to it, but it’s not the least bit negative at all.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, it is. It does focus on the challenges, which is certainly some hard things that we as artists go through, but it’s all about, well, how did you get through it? What did you learn from it? Why, do you keep persisting? How do you get this resilience to keep coming back again and again to auditions? How do you, you know, and then just navigating the, ins and outs of being an artist? And because I’ve had actors, directors, writers, and all kinds of people on the show, because even though I’m an actor myself, I certainly understand the difficulties that other people in the room that I’ve been with in theater settings especially, I know the struggles that they’re going through. And so it’s fascinating to hear, how does this writer get over that writer’s block? How does this director get through a moment when the actors just aren’t doing what he or she want them to do, you know, despite the title being.

Steve Cuden: Why I’ll never make it, it’s really about how do people make it.

Patrick Oliver Jones: And the making it. And this is one thing that’s grown over time, because after that first season, my co host went on to do other things, and so I kept on with it. And throughout the seasons, the biggest thing that I’ve learned is that making it is different for everybody. And it changes throughout our Life, throughout our career, for sure. And so making it, to me when I was 20 meant Broadway. Making it right now means I have a steady job, I have income, I have, you know, health insurance. I have a Life outside of the arts. I have, you know, a social life. I have people, I have friends. So making it is something a little different than when I was younger. And it’s the same for all my guests they’re making it is completely different. And on my podcast, I generally, in some which a way, find out what making it mean. Have you made it? What do you. I’ve only had two people in all eight seasons say, yes, I think I’ve made it. Everyone else says, no, I’m still making and I’m still working.

Steve Cuden: I think if you think you’ve made it, you’re finished.

Patrick Oliver Jones: And these are two very successful actresses. So, I mean, I applaud them for their competence and be like, you know what? I’m doing exactly what I want to do? Yes, I have made it right now.

Steve Cuden: So that your definition of I’ll use this word, which is success, you have reached a form of success that makes you comfortable and happy with where you are versus making what you thought you were trying to do when you were 18, 1920 years old.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. I think what they were referring to is that they’ve hit that place that they’ve been working so hard to get to.

Steve Cuden: In fact, that’s exactly. I’m sure what they’re talking about is that they have made it. They’ve got some notoriety, if that’s what they were looking for. They’re making money at it. People know who they are. Perhaps they’re being cast in parts without having to audition, that kind of thing.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Those are nice. Those are nice things. Yes, they are.

Steve Cuden: When people come to you rather than you going to them, that’s a very nice thing to have happen. All right, so what is closing night?

Patrick Oliver Jones: So, closing night started last year, and it was an idea that actually got from another podcasting friend of mine who does a movie history podcast. And I love listening to his podcast, and I eventually reached out to him and was just saying, I love your podcast. He and I, became friends. We started contacting one another. he helped work on a few things that I was doing podcasting wise, and he had this idea. It’s like, well, why don’t you do a Broadway version of what I do, since you love Broadway so much? And so it got me thinking. I was like, that could actually be working. That could work out really nicely. So we did, and fortunately, he helped me. He does the editing, I do the producing and the writing and hosting of it. And we had our first season, we picked eight shows to do, and it did really well. It actually, just last week, it won, an award, a communicator award for the podcast. So, it’s doing really well. And I’m very happy with how we take these shows that, as I say, close too soon. For various reasons, we take these shows that close too soon. What happened? What was that process? Why did it close? Why did it stay open? So we try to give, the history of these shows and what made them make it or not.

Steve Cuden: I think if anybody could ever actually figure out why a show stays open or closes, they could make a whole lot of money.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, if you listen to my podcast, I think you’ll get at least a few ideas as to why.

Steve Cuden: You know, it’s interesting to me sometimes shows stay open forever, and you really don’t know why? Because really, they’re not that great. And there are shows that people have seen, and they know these are spectacular shows, but they close right away. And what the reason behind it is sometimes is, very unknown. Even if you’re trying to analyze it, it has to do with the timing of it. It has to do, do with the audience and what mood they’re in during that period of time and so on. And I’m sure you’ve heard all of the various reasons.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Absolutely. Yeah. And it depends on the show itself. You know, like Jekyll and Hyde, it didn’t get great reviews, but it lasted four years on Broadway.

Steve Cuden: Didn’t get great reviews.

Patrick Oliver Jones: What? What?

Steve Cuden: How dare you? You’re never going to get worse reviews on a show opening night on Broadway and stay open for four years. That’s never going to, to happen.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Right. But yet some bad reviews close the show the night it opened.

Steve Cuden: The night it opened.

Patrick Oliver Jones: So it really depends on the show itself and what those ingredients are that are going to close it.

Steve Cuden: As I said on, why I’ll never make it. Thank God for the jackies. That’s all I’ll say.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Right. That passion, that passion for the show kept it going.

Steve Cuden: Indeed. All right, so the last of the three you do is called the Spotlight series. Tell us about that.

Patrick Oliver Jones: So the spotlight series at first was kind of incorporated into why I’ll never make it. And I was trying to branch out from singular performing artists and talk about companies. And so I did, like, a handful of those. But then last year, I decided to branch it out into its own singular podcast. And I focused on this one organization that I’ve actually been volunteering with for ten plus years now called only make Believe, where they bring interactive theater into children’s hospitals, care facilities. These children who can’t come to the theater, they bring the theater to them.

Steve Cuden: And it’s called only make believe.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Only make believe, based upon Oscar Hammerstein’s, song lyric. And it was founded by Dina Hammerstein, who was the husband of James Hammerstein, the son of Oscar Hammerstein. And so that organization started in 1999. And so last year, they always hold a gala in November. So I did, a very limited six episode series just to talk about that organization, talk about people involved with it, talk about people who were going to perform at the gala, why they loved only make believe so much. So it really was a chance to do a deep dive into an organization, an arts organization that was doing something really away from the big lights of the stage of Broadway, that kind of thing. And really dealing with a very vulnerable but also precious audience.

Steve Cuden: You must spend a lot of time researching and preparing for each show. Yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, for a while. Never make it. I fortunately hit a nice place where I have a, questionnaire that I give guests, and so I’m able to let them kind of guide where the conversation is going to go because I want to know what they want to talk about. So from there, my job is a little easier because I know the direction and so I can ask questions based upon their stories. For closing night, that one really takes the longest because I have to come up with a show. you know, like this next season, season two will be shows that never opened, so that maybe they got to preview Broadway previews but then never opened. So, you know, things like Lone Star Thrower love that starred Randy Quaid, that closed out of town, was in Seattle going to come to Broadway. Never did. Why?

Steve Cuden: With a star in it.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Right. With a movie star in it. So, you know, finding these interesting shows and then trying to build a story, you know, 2030 minutes episode out of it, that really takes a lot of research.

Steve Cuden: Where do you do most of your research? Is it online today or is it elsewhere?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, it’s mostly online. Fortunately, I can find, if it’s a show that’s well enough known that I can find people who’ve talked about it either in playbill or other places. And then I heavily go to YouTube. I try to get, videos, interviews of people who are involved with the show to kind of hear their experiences. Sometimes I’ll take a clip of that, put it into, but I try to get a story from the artists themselves. what really happened and why things went the way they went. And then if I can, I try to personally interview at least one person and involved with the show.

Steve Cuden: What would you say are the biggest challenges you have in doing any of the three or all three? What are the challenges in being a podcaster for you?

Patrick Oliver Jones: I mean, the first thing was the. Was the editing. There’s just the time consuming process of.

Steve Cuden: Oh, yes.

Patrick Oliver Jones: As you know, just putting the show together, clipping out things that maybe didn’t make sense, moving this movie that, you know, sometimes I’ll move this question to the front, to the back, you know, so this editing so that the episode, episode again follows a story arc and resolves and,

Steve Cuden: Sounds professional.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Right. And so that sounds good to the ear because obviously, you’re not watching a video. It’s all in the ear, so it has to sound really nice. So that was, like, the first thing. But coming from broadcasting background, that was at least something that I knew something, about. The hardest thing is the marketing and getting people to listen to it. And that’s what I wasn’t prepared for, is the time. I would say 70% of my time has to be in marketing, whereas the 30% is actually making the episode. So, that I wasn’t ready for. And the amount of writing that I have to do for post, for newsletter or, for whatever I’m doing, that writing can almost be as much as the writing for the actual episode.

Steve Cuden: I think that’s spot on. You spend a whole lot more time on the back end of things than you do on the actual show, including post production. Pre production. Post production, the show, you know, it’s an hour or whatever it is, an hour and a half, whatever you might do. But everything around it takes enormous amounts of effort.

Patrick Oliver Jones: For sure. Absolutely.

Steve Cuden: Do you do your own editing on, why I’ll never make it?

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, for why I’ll never make it. And Spotlight series, those are all mine. And then for closing night, thankfully, my friend Dan, he’s a co producer on it, and he handles the editing for that.

Steve Cuden: Well, that takes a little burden off of you because that’s also time consuming.

Patrick Oliver Jones: For sure it is.

Steve Cuden: So I’ve been having one of the most fascinating, really wonderful conversations with Patrick Oliver Jones for a little more than an hour at this moment. And, we’re going to wind the show down a little bit. And I’m wondering, in all of your experiences, and you’ve had many at this point, can you share with us a story that’s either weird, quirky, offbeat, strange, or maybe just plain funny. More than the ones you’ve already told us.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, it’s very interesting. My very first principal role in a show, you know, I’ve been doing ensemble, but this was my first professional principal role. I was doing Pharaoh in Joseph in the amazing Technicolor dreamcoat.

Steve Cuden: Okay.

Patrick Oliver Jones: And I found out from the director, so this was in a summer stock, you know, one of my very first professional contracts. I found out from the. It was either the producer or the director that, the guy they originally had cast had to bow out. So then they just needed to pull someone from the ensemble because there was no to recast it that quickly. So I was chosen to take his place. I am 19 years old at the time, taking on Pharaoh, which, you know, in case you listening aren’t familiar, it’s basically the Elvis role of the show. He’s the pharaoh of Egypt, but it’s basically an Elvis impersonator. And, that’s the song. He’s given, the type of mannerisms he has, the white jumpsuit, everything. So in prepping for it, I go back to Elvis videos. I kind of see how he moves. I try to, you know, just become Elvis as much as I could. But again, I’m 19, so it’s not like I have the, the Life experience, nor really the. Elvis had a sexuality to him. You know, he had, he had that kind of, you know, oomph to him. And at 19, I didn’t quite have that oomph. Yeah, I’m trying to kind of make it up. But what was, what’s funny about it is that it was a couple of performance in, I was brought after, the show, I was brought backstage and then I was going to like, you know, meet some friends of the director, producer. Anyways, this is like group of people, and it was mostly women in their fifties and sixties who probably remember Elvis. They watched and maybe went to his concerts. And as soon as I came out, I was like stampeded. I’m this 19 year old and they’re just like, hi. Oh, my gosh, you were so. I mean, they were just like, like, multiple. Just like fawning over me. I was like, what is happening? You know, not growing up with Elvis and that, that kind of fever that, that he produced in fans, I wasn’t ready for that. So it was very interesting to be a part of that.

Steve Cuden: I’m certainly not a famous person, and I’ve never had people stampede me, but I’ve seen stars being stampeded and people coming up to them. It’s got to be a very strange phenomenon to live your life where everybody knows who you are, but you don’t know who anybody else is.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I. So I, you know, again, I’m not in that position either. But for that one moment, for those ten or 15 minutes when the women were just fawning all over me, I was like, I don’t see how people do this day in, day out.

Steve Cuden: It’s why some people don’t do it well. Some people fold on it. They get away from it, and some people thrive on it. They want their attention.

Patrick Oliver Jones: They love that attention. They smile and they love it. They’ll take the pictures, whatever.

Steve Cuden: absolutely. The last question for you today, Patrick, you’ve shared with us a huge amount of great advice throughout the show, but I’m wondering if you have a solid piece of advice or a tip that you like to give those who are just starting out in the business, or maybe they’re in a little bit and trying to get to the next level.

Patrick Oliver Jones: I think one of the biggest things that I’ve learned myself that, I would want to impart to others is to not take this business personally. Yes, there’s a part of ourselves that we bring into the characters, into the songs, into the scenes. Yes, we need to be passionate about that and give that our all. And that can be very personal, but we can’t take the business part of it personally. The audition rejects a director doesn’t like what you did and wants you to do something else, you know, don’t do it like that. maybe you get a bad review, whatever it is. There are certain things that from the more business side of it, you know, other. Outside of ourselves and our performance, that other part of it, that it can be hard to not take it personally because I have put myself into this character and you don’t like it. Do you not like me? Do you not like, You know, it can be so easy to take that as a personal affront to you. And the best things that I ever did, or at least that helped me, was doing commercials. I’ve done 60 plus national and regional commercials throughout my career, and they have helped me both, in the audition process, but also just doing them, they’ve helped me not care about what happens or what’s said or how things go, because commercial auditions are very random and strange, and you do the weirdest things in them. I’ve had to wrestle an alligator. I’ve had to pretend to do a slip and slide in a carpeted room. I, mean, you do anything and everything, and it’s so random. And then you leave, and then, you know, again, nine times out of ten, you’re not cast. So you move on that. That kind of just move on to the next one. That commercial audition process really helped me with my theater audition and not taking it so personally because I was up for a visa, national commercial, and it was between me and this other guy, but the other guy got it because the children they chose had blonde hair, and I don’t.

Steve Cuden: And it was just that simple.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah. And so it can be something that is not anything to do with your talent. It’s not personal when you’re not chosen. It’s not always personal when the director doesn’t like what you did there, but wants you to do something else. It’s not personal. It’s about the character. It’s about whatever they’re looking for, for. So that’s the biggest thing that I would say.

Steve Cuden: And that will tie into what you were talking about in why I’ll never make it, to be persistent beyond the fact that it is not personal.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Yeah, yeah. Because the personal aspect of it comes in you wanting to do what you want to do because you enjoy it, you love it, you have a passion for it. That’s what will keep you going. Don’t, wait for others to keep on applauding you or for you to make every single audience you’re just not. You have to do it because you want to do it.

Steve Cuden: I just want to remind the listeners to listen to why I’ll never make it. Closing night and the Spotlight series with Patrick Oliver Jones. Patrick, this has been an absolutely wonderful hour plus on StoryBeat today, and I can’t thank you enough for your time, your energy, and your wisdom, and for sharing all of this with us today.

Patrick Oliver Jones: Well, I greatly appreciate it. You are wonderful to talk to. So I’m glad we got to have another conversation together and just thank you for everything you’re doing with your podcast as well.

Steve Cuden: and so we’ve come to the end of today’s StoryBeat If you like this episode, won’t you please take a moment to give us a comment, rating, or review on whatever app or platform you’re listening to? Your support helps us bring more great StoryBeat episodes to you. StoryBeat is available on all major podcast apps and platforms, including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Tunein, and many others. Until next time, I’m Steve Cuden, and may all your stories be unforgettable.